12-08-2004, 01:47 PM | #821 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-08-2004 at 01:49 PM. |
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12-08-2004, 02:01 PM | #822 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think a good analogy is one Jesus Himself uses, in Revelation 3:20 : Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-08-2004 at 02:14 PM. |
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12-08-2004, 02:02 PM | #823 | |
avocatus diaboli
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And of course, things like rape and abuse can happen inside marriage as well. Of course, if you were looking at more than just this single Commandment, that statement would not be an issue for me. That's basically it, I think. Got to run to class now...
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12-08-2004, 02:13 PM | #824 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-08-2004 at 02:14 PM. |
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12-08-2004, 02:47 PM | #825 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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There are some atheists that I would trust with my kids more than some Christians. And this is entirely consistent with logic and the Christian worldview, IMO. The radical thing about Christianity is that becoming a Christian is NOT based on how "good" a person is! It's just based on a person realizing their very real, and good and right, need of the God who made them and loves them and designed them for fellowship with Him. It's just so cool to me that anyone - ANYONE - can turn to God at ANY TIME and from ANY CIRCUMSTANCES - and God opens His arms wide to them, and eagerly gathers them to His great heart. As Elfhelm pointed out, Jesus spent time with the "scum of the earth" people - and apparently liked His time with them a lot more than His time with most of the religious leaders! (hypocrisy stinks in any age ) The religion of the Jews had, long ago, turned to form and away from heart, and those who were drawn to legalism the most were also drawn to be leaders in this religion. As Jesus quoted from Isaiah, "This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far away from Me." Jesus had some scathing (and true) criticism of many of the religious leaders; I don't see that attitude when He talks to prostitutes, altho He is fully aware of what they have done and does not condone their actions. Brownie, you're a VERY nice guy, as I've said many times here , and I like you a LOT, but frankly, what if you were in circumstances where you had no parents, no one that cared for you or taught you things that were good, you were regularly abused physically and mentally, and you had to rely on theft and deception, over and over, to even survive? I don't think you would appear to be such a "good" person anymore; I know I wouldn't. You're only responsible for what you DO with whatcha got. You can't choose the family or circumstances you were born into. And God, who is entirely fair and just, knows this. I think Lewis is spot on when he observes that much of a "good" person's "goodness" is only due to his easy circumstances. I see a "bad" person, and think, "There am I, but for my easy circumstances." And IMO, Christ sees people the same way. And He demonstrated, over and over, that He loves ALL people, and has NO regard for how people classify other people. He sees their hearts. I think Jesus sees and honors our true attempts to do right. Yet He also sees and mourns over our sin - the sin that is in EVERYONE (including "good" and "nice" people) to some degree - and longs to forgive and heal us. And He can - if we let Him. That's why transformation is so important. Your starting point doesn't really matter. WHEREVER a person starts when they have asked Jesus into their hearts, they will go up from there. There will be fits and starts, and dips back down as God works deep in their hearts and brings dark things to the light, and static periods as we sometimes wander, and then great leaps up; but the overall TREND will be one of positive transformation. And I think that God is more truly pleased, as I've said many times before, with a habitual liar who refrains from lying one time out of 100, than with me when I don't lie at ALL in 100 chances. And this is fair and right; I have had parents who showed me the beauty of truth, while a habitual liar most likely did NOT have this. Why should I get credit for something I didn't earn, and have no difficulty in avoiding? But God, in His tender mercy and love, knows the areas that I have difficulty in, and is so gentle and encouraging when I make my little baby steps, holding His loving hand, in these areas. IMO, Christianity is the most fair worldview in existence, and this is one of the reasons that I think it is true, because all of us in our hearts see and honor fairness - because we are made in the image of a God who is entirely fair and just. God says He loves justice and fairness - and so do we.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-08-2004 at 02:53 PM. |
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12-08-2004, 03:03 PM | #826 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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EDIT - actually, there IS a name that Stalin committed the atrocities in - the name of Stalin. The name that atheists commit their acts in is their own name ... Quote:
And I honor you very much for respecting your wife. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-08-2004 at 03:07 PM. |
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12-08-2004, 03:08 PM | #827 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'm now CAUGHT UP on this thread!
I'm OUTTA here!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-08-2004, 04:29 PM | #828 | |
Elf Lord
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PS Superb job Rian! *angels sing Hallelujah Chorus*
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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12-08-2004, 04:52 PM | #829 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Thank you, inky, and I'm sure you'll join me in this:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-08-2004 at 04:57 PM. |
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12-08-2004, 05:08 PM | #830 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Closing statement
Thank you, everyone, for your wonderful company and great questions! I've really enjoyed getting to know you guys better, and I always enjoy good, vigorous, thought-provoking discussions with friends You guys have given me lots to think about, and lots of moments to remember with fondness, for you've shared from your hearts with me with honesty, candor and consideration. What a great gift! Thank you again
*gets off of very warm hot seat with a few creaks in the joints* Brownie - go ahead and make your opening statement whenever you're ready Until he makes his statement, I'll field any remaining minor questions, and anything that needs more time can be moved to the Theology thread, if that's OK with Nurvi
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-08-2004 at 05:10 PM. |
12-08-2004, 05:16 PM | #831 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
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That was awesome Ri! You rock socks. I really enjoyed your posts!
Just one comment on inked's post that I missed: Quote:
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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12-08-2004, 05:32 PM | #832 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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thanks for the extensive answers R*an... it actually seguays pretty well into my "why"... here's my "what" from earlier in the thread:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-08-2004, 05:34 PM | #833 |
Elf Lord
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Well, Nurv,
I am Anglican (though how much longer I'll be Episcopalian is an open question). Carefully consider the questions at Confirmation in light of Rian's comments and summary. This is what those questions are raising. I was paraphrasing the Book of Common Prayer of ECUSA, so your version may be slightly different in Canada, but not that different. All books of Common Prayer in the Anglican Communion are descended from 1549 and Cranmer (some more rigorously than others). Also, your BOCP should have a section labelled Catechism or something similar about these same issues and others. If you have questions, I'll be happy to give you my take on things Anglican. You realize of course that there is the teensiest possibility that I could be anomalous, don't you?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
12-08-2004, 05:43 PM | #834 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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The Bible - your Lord's loving words to YOU! And you can ALWAYS pray, even in Sweden
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-08-2004 at 05:47 PM. |
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12-08-2004, 05:51 PM | #835 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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"extensive" - heehee! *soaks her fingers in ice water* Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-09-2004, 03:12 PM | #836 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Brownie, if there is no creator, then how do you explain anything, even the Big Bang theory? Something has to be at the beginning.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
12-09-2004, 04:17 PM | #837 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Brownie, did you see my answer to your question? It's post #825. I just wanted to be sure you saw it
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-10-2004, 05:50 PM | #838 | |||||||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Brownie - given your worldview, what would YOU say to a young girl who was abused by her father and left home and is now a prostitute to get money to survive? What would you have to say to her about fairness?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-10-2004 at 05:53 PM. |
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12-10-2004, 06:01 PM | #839 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-12-2004, 02:51 PM | #840 |
Elf Lord
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INTERESTING report hot off The Sunday Times!
INTERVIEW/ article at http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...p?storyid=1785 Posted by dvirtue on 2004/12/12 9:52:00 (49 reads) __________________ Sorry, says atheist-in-chief, I do believe in God after all By Stuart Wavell and Will Iredale The Sunday Times LONDON (12/12/2004)--A LOST sheep has returned to the fold. One of the most renowned atheists of the past half century has changed his mind and decided that there is a God after all. Antony Flew, 81, emeritus professor of philosophy at Reading University, whose arguments for atheism have influenced scholars around the world, has been converted to the view that some sort of deity created the universe. Flew, the son of a Methodist minister, is keen to repent. “As people have certainly been influenced by me, I want to try and correct the enormous damage I may have done,” he said yesterday. But he is unlikely to proclaim his faith from a pulpit. He is still not a Christian and dismisses the conventional forms of divinity as “the monstrous oriental despots of the religions of Christianity and Islam”. He also stands by his rejection of an afterlife. Instead, he believes that new scientific discoveries have revealed the existence of an organising intelligence. Investigation of DNA, he said, “has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce life, that intelligence must have been involved”. Darwin’s theory of evolution does not explain the origin and development of life to Flew’s satisfaction. “I have been persuaded that it is simply out of the question that the first living matter evolved out of dead matter and then developed into an extraordinarily complicated creature,” he said. Flew finds the conventional explanation that life arose out of a complex chemical brew or primordial soup “improbable”. So he is emulating Socrates and “following the argument wherever it leads. The conclusion is — there must have been some intelligence”. His volte face is all the more remarkable given his vehement denial of internet rumours in 2001 that he had renounced his atheism. His response was entitled: “Sorry To Disappoint, but I’m Still an Atheist!” He has always described himself as a “negative atheist”, asserting the impossibility of either verifying or disproving the existence of God, a position he explained in his 1950 paper Theology and Falsification, reprinted 40 times in many languages. His revised views are likely to cause as big a commotion as the astronomer royal’s recent speculation that the universe could be no more than a computer simulation, with humans reduced to bits of software. Sir Martin Rees, Royal Society professor of astronomy at Cambridge University, said in a Channel 4 television documentary that on current trends that computers would be able to simulate worlds as complicated as the one we inhabit — or think we do. “This raises the philosophical question: could we ourselves be in such a simulation and could what we think is the universe be some sort of vault of heaven rather than the real thing?” he asked. Flew became an atheist at 15 and went on to proclaim his non-credo while teaching at Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele and Reading universities. The professor is now revising the introduction to one of his 23 books, God and Philosophy, incorporating his revised ideas. “I am certain I shall surprise a lot of people,” he said. Peter Atkins, an atheist and professor of chemistry at Oxford University, is not impressed by Flew’s reasoning. “It’s absurd to think that because something is improbable it’s impossible,” he said. As for evidence of divine design, he observed: “There are several faults in nature’s design. If I were God I would expect the current design to be sent back to me for improvement.” END ___________________________ This article reprinted in entirety and the accompanying interview at the site noted (NOT conducted by the site, please note!) seemed most germane to the topic and are posted for interest while waiting BrownJenkins return.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |