04-10-2003, 06:05 PM | #821 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Interesting take on history, JD. Did you forget that Stalingrad and the Battle of Britain were the major turning points in the war? This while the US was still puttering around in N. Africa, and then still a minority to the British forces. Once the armored divisions of the Reich were destroyed on the eastern front the war was basically over for the Germans. It would have lasted much longer without US intervention, but there is no doubt that the USSR was in full control of the Eastern front after the winter of 1943. The Romanian divisions were pretty useless.
The Russians would have conquered all Europe had D-Day not occurred, however. They had developed production capacity far exceeding Germany's as far as war materiels; and manpower was certainly on their side. We had to race to Berlin to save what we could of Europe from the communists (as big a favor as saving them from the fascists), so for that the western Europeans should be doubly grateful.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
04-10-2003, 06:19 PM | #822 | |||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Reagan had declared the Soviet Union as the "Evil Empire" and the weak kneed Europeans flinched at that phrasing too. But nearly 20 years later - we don't have to worry about that "Evil Empire" anymore. Quote:
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I don't see why people expect our military to be the military of the world and only listen to world opinion and do what the world wants - but not be used by the people who ACTUALLY pay the taxes that support it. We will continue to use our military and tax dollars in OUR self interest. It doesn't mean that our interests and the worlds interests won't be the same - in which case we will use it. We will ONLY enter into treaties that are in OUR interest. What country would sign a treaty if it wasn't beneficial in some respect to them? I've heard repeated complaints we didn't sign the Kyoto treaty or that we pulled out of the ABM treaty. That had nothing to do with the world at large - it had to do with OUR self interests. The world does not control America - so people should just realise that they don't have a voice in OUR government unless they're Americans. As Markedel - Quote:
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04-10-2003, 06:34 PM | #823 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
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Ok, an honest question (or two). Why are you so worried about how the rest of the world see's you? There seems to be a lot of Isolationist talk at the moment.....is this really what the American people want? Last edited by Coney : 04-10-2003 at 06:36 PM. |
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04-10-2003, 06:34 PM | #824 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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DELETED due to forgotten smiley and bad joke anyway.
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We are not things. Last edited by Earniel : 04-11-2003 at 04:45 AM. |
04-10-2003, 06:36 PM | #825 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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As for Russian - the Soviet Union was BEGGING Britain and America to start a western front - otherwise they would not have lasted against Germany. Churchill wanted to attack from Africa and go through Italy and theMeditarranean because he was more afraid of the Soviet Union claiming Estern Europe more than he was about conquering Germany. It was Roosevelt after two years of arguing with Churchill who finally got him to accept the D-Day operation. Quote:
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Also - who was it that stepped in during the Berlin wall? Europe? Of course not - it was the US that was required to step up and prevent the Soviet Union from taking over all of Berlin.
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04-10-2003, 06:51 PM | #826 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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By the way - I knew French Fries were Belgium too. My anger against France how nothing to do with their disagreement over the war - it was their blatant stonewalling. It was Chirac's comments telling eastern European countries to "Shut up or riosk losing European Union membership". It's amazing how so many people bring up the "Axis of Evil" comments or American "bullying" or offering Turkey billions in aid to open northern front against Iraq - but are silent when it comes to the outrageouos comments that have come out of Chirac's mouth. A president who only won election becuase france almost elected Le Pen who was a racist and the equivalent of the US voting in a KKK Imperial Wizard. So if you think that Chirac had the vote of the people from France - you might want to rethink why he got reelected. Initially it wasn't thought that he was going to - it was actually just a vote against Le Pen. Based on a lot of views from European politicians - Europe has not moved that far from Hitler (who was freely elected too).
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 04-10-2003 at 06:54 PM. |
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04-10-2003, 07:13 PM | #827 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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We protected Europe from the Soviet Union for DECADES using OUR tax money. We're protecting South Korea currently. We led the battle to bring down Meloshevic (which Europe never argued we needed UN approval for nor did we wait for it or even go to the UN). So why should we protect the world when all anyone does it ridicule what we do? Our military isn't paid for by Europe or the UN - so why should it be used except when it's in our interests? Europe could have taken action against Meloshevic (as we tried getting them to do) - but instead we had to go in and lead the way. We had to lead the way against Iraq during the Gulf War too. Today - iraq would still be in Kuwait and most likely would have been in Saudia Arabia and Syria. Amazingly - we didn't stay in Kuwait - we didn't take over Kuwait. We restored the regime back in. People criticise us for restoring the regime of Kuwait becuase it wasn't a democracy - but then people criticise us that we tell countries how to run their countries. Which one were we supposed to do - liberate Kuwait or institute democracy? At least we freed them from the brutalist of Iraq. People repeatedly bring up the past US Foreign Policy. It is impossible to judge past US foreign policy on the way the world is today. The world was a chess board played by the Soviet Union and the US. If you think the Soviet Union was happy to stay in it's borders - then you are blind. The US had to play the game like the Soviet Union was - otherwise you wouldn't see just one North Korea today - you'd be seeing almost the whole world as living under brutal regimes. The world would be a much less safer place without the US foreign policy of yesterday while we fought against the Soviet Union. Iran, Iraq, Afganistan, Nicaragua, Cuba, Korea, Vietnam, etc was all in response to the Soviet Union. You can't judge the actions of the US without looking at the big picture and say that we "supported Iraq against Iran". We didn't support Iraq - we just didn't want the Soviet supported Iran to control the region of the Middle East. Does that mean that we did everything right in our foreign policy? Of course not? But we have a much cleaner record than many countries in Europe - even if you just restrict that down to the 200 years the US has been in existence. If the world would rather live in a world without the US - then I say we should pull our troops out of the world, and just worry about protecting our borders. It may seem odd - but our Constitution is the Consitution of the United States of AMERICA and does not extend beyond our borders. Our tax dollars are not the world's cash. It's from HARD working Americans. And the only thing that our tax dollars should be EXPECTED to benefit are Americans.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 04-10-2003 at 07:22 PM. |
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04-10-2003, 07:24 PM | #828 | |
Lurker
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There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium... Last edited by Elf Girl : 04-10-2003 at 07:40 PM. |
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04-10-2003, 07:35 PM | #829 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Just a note though - I'm not for hand out programs. I think welfare should be to get people back on their feet - but not a life style thing.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 04-10-2003 at 07:38 PM. |
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04-10-2003, 07:50 PM | #830 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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04-10-2003, 07:58 PM | #831 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Do you have a hybrid car? If not - why not? Do you get your energy from renewable sources? I get my electricity from Green Mountain. I have also looked at hybrid cars and I would get one if I didn't need to worry about getting a new contract first. Citizens can do a lot more than requiring our government to sign a treaty. New Jersey has taken the midwest states to court over their pollution - as has many northeast states. 1/3 of New Jersey's air pollution comes from the coal plants in the midwest. 1/3 of New Jersey's automobile pollution comes from outof states cars. We should sue the other states to make sure they have the auto emmision standards. New Jersey and California have the toughest auto emmission standards in the country.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 04-10-2003 at 08:04 PM. |
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04-10-2003, 08:38 PM | #832 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
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Ah well, whoever said the world was a grateful place |
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04-10-2003, 08:48 PM | #833 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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People view the US as the world's police station - when they want something taken care of - they give us a call (and they see no problem and they like the police). They problem comes in when we start breaking up parties or interfering with their speeding - then we get cursed at. Unlike the police though (at least in America) we don't answer to the world - no country really does - except through treaties and agreements.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-10-2003, 09:29 PM | #834 | |
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My family took a vacation in West Berlin in 1964. It was depressing, and very creepy. Barbed wire everywhere, and the big "tourist attraction" was Check-point Charlie. West Berlin was great! The Berlin Zoo was awesome. East berlin was a grey dreary zombie zone, on the other side of all the barbed wire and armed guards.
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 04-10-2003 at 10:17 PM. |
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04-10-2003, 10:05 PM | #835 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
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As for wether Europe, France or the UN would act......who knows? I'm British, we made fighting Europe practically a hobby for 1300 yrs Still if America didn't get involved.......who would blame them *shrugs*........no one has ever forced them to go into battle on foriegn soil. |
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04-10-2003, 10:15 PM | #836 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-10-2003, 10:37 PM | #837 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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JD., I hope with all your posting you will have a chance to expand on your theory that the USSR's request for help from the allies was the turning point in the war against the axis powers on the eastern front and not the battlefield tactics and valor during Stalingrad and subsequent retreat of the Germans. What is it the allied forces did to assist at Stalingrad?
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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04-10-2003, 11:02 PM | #838 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
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Hey! the Iraqi' people and the Afghans look pretty grateful, there ya go! |
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04-10-2003, 11:34 PM | #839 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-10-2003, 11:36 PM | #840 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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