02-15-2005, 10:48 AM | #821 |
Elf Lord
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It sort of makes things difficult with marriage vows if it's the whole 'til death do us part' syndrome...
One supposes that being rebodied doesn't count as a "new" life...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
02-15-2005, 01:11 PM | #822 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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As far as being re-embodied, it was and wasn't a new life. It was a combo of both. They still had the memories of their life before, which I think is why Aegnor chose not to be re-embodied. They had the memories of both lives.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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02-15-2005, 02:46 PM | #823 |
Elf Lord
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Hrmmm.. no ceremony? That's interesting. One supposes it could mean that they only fell in love with those they were "ordained" to fall in love with...
Since they had their memories, I would venture that it did not count as a 'new' life. Memory is what makes an individual an individual, discounting the uniquness of a 'soul'. Which in this case doesn't matter anyway, since it was supposedly the basis of the transfer. One would presume that the process of being 'rebodied' would be much the same as when a maiar forms a body... Though I doubt it can occur for elves except under special circumstances. Perhaps it's one of Mandos' or a related maiar's job to assist with the formation of a new body... I suppose they had to go through all sorts of special trouble for Beren...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
02-15-2005, 03:51 PM | #824 | |||
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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valinor. They were inriched by having the memories of both lives. Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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02-15-2005, 05:00 PM | #825 | |
Elf Lord
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But that's not exactly what I meant by ordained. Ordained as in a preist or ceremony... not pre-ordained as such... I merely thought it was interesting that the elves self "ordained" their marriage by nookie, whilst humans seem to need a social sanctioned service by an ordained authority... [/QUOTE]Beren was a special exception made by Mandos for Luthien. This is a task soley left to Mandos. He was the doomsman, the keeper of souls. Only Mandos could decide how long an Elf was held in the halls....[/QUOTE] Actually wasn't Manwe consulted in Beren's case, as well as Manwe pushing the call even 'higher up'? Not for being released, but for being rebodied. One wonders if Mandos had any authority over Beren at all, being that he was a man, and not bound to Arda anyway.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-16-2005, 11:22 AM | #826 | ||
Queen of Nargothrond
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From Morgoth's Ring- Volume 10- Laws and Customs of the Eldar- The Histories of Middle-earth Series. Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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02-16-2005, 02:11 PM | #827 | |
Elf Lord
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I can see why Tolkien would consider a marriage ceremony superfluous if it were something that inherent to their makeup. It also explains the furor over Finwe... And why Feanor's wife didn't dump him for someone more sensible...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 02-16-2005 at 02:13 PM. Reason: Put in a spell checker! The Black language is my native tongue! I cannot speak/spell the english! |
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02-25-2005, 05:05 PM | #828 | |
Honourary Elitist Inklette
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02-25-2005, 10:10 PM | #829 | |
Elf Lord
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Pumping out 7 puppies might be enough to make any woman grumpy though...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-26-2005, 03:12 AM | #830 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Have you been able to get your hands on any of the HoME books, Blackheart? The ones on LOTR are not very good, IMO (who wants to hear about "Trotter the Hobbit"?) but the Sil ones are great! Be sure to check out the Shibboleth thread - very interesting backstory on Fëanor! I think the account of marriage customs in HoME 10 (MR) is very interesting. I like how the ceremony is nice - but not needed. The rest of the paragraph that SGH quoted is this :
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EDIT - found it - "For with regard to generation the power and the will are not among the Eldar distinguishable." I interpreted it to mean that they chose when to conceive. Is that how you guys read it? SECOND EDIT - whoops, getting waaay OT - ok, Tuor and Fingon ROCK! LOVE those guys! *fans herself*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-26-2005 at 03:16 AM. |
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02-26-2005, 06:04 AM | #831 |
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I probably have them lying around somewhere still. But I haven't cracked them in ages, and I doubt I will ever become as conversant with them as I am with the published works, or even untold tales.
I wouldn't doubt at all that Tolkien would have viewed the elvish conception as a specific act of will. They get all they good stuff. A lot of the concept of elvish "grace" is based on the idea of elevated spirituality, from what I can garner. That's why they can marry at the drop of a hat apparantly, concieve at will, choose when to let go of thier body (and get a new one...) and live happily ever after forever (given the right conditions i.e. not middle earth in the age of men) And people still wonder why the Numenoreans got jealous?
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
02-26-2005, 01:46 PM | #832 | ||
avocatus diaboli
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And technically they can't choose when to get a new body... Quote:
Yeah, that's how I would read it too, RÃ*... And after reading some of the UT... yes, Tuor's pretty cool... Though... not nearly as cool as Finrod...
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02-26-2005, 02:13 PM | #833 | ||
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02-28-2005, 02:01 AM | #834 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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He's HOT! Have you read the Fall of Gondolin? If not - don't! I might have another rival for Tuor ... *swats away Earniel*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-28-2005, 02:29 AM | #835 | |
avocatus diaboli
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You've got Eärniel and Embladyne to deal with. Me... no. I'm not about to branch outside of House Finwë... there are too many great guys that I already like there, Finrod of course being foremost. Anyway, SGH would kill me.
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~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
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02-28-2005, 03:13 AM | #836 | |
Elf Lord
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And how often is a new body refused? At any rate, how often were the Numenoreans offered one?
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-28-2005, 04:14 PM | #837 | |
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(Rian, I'm still slightly uncomforatble with your claiming of him....I mean, isn't he your son? ) |
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02-28-2005, 04:54 PM | #838 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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no, no, that's another RÃ*an!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-23-2005, 04:04 PM | #839 | |
Elentári
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03-23-2005, 04:09 PM | #840 |
avocatus diaboli
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It lives again!
I can't imagine there are that many RÃ*ans who are attached to Tuor in some way or another...
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~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
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