Writing using Tengwar characters

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eärniel
(Actually, for a nitpick, it was meant as: "On the human chessboard all moves are possible", but with writing in circles you loose your beginning and end. )

Oh, how funny! Yes, when writing in circles it's hard to tell where the beginning is! I just picked a place near the top and started translating, and then picked where I thought it started. But I guess it works both ways, pretty much. Your writing is very pretty and looks Tolkien-ish; mine doesn't. I think I make mine too fat or something. But it's still fun.

The doubling mark is the little tilde symbol under the consonant; the final silent "e" that's often used in English is the dot under the consonant.

I wrote out "This place sucks!" in english mode; I need to scan it in. I imagine that wherever it appears, there will soon be some intelligence-type guys analyzing it ... that would be so funny to see it on the news! (and the word "place" has that final silent "e" mark)

[Beor]

Yeah, but I dont like the little dot, so I just throw in a short "e". I figure if Tolkien can spell the same word differently in different places, I can use a friggen short "e" in place of a silent one, so that is what to look for

[Rían]

That's one thing I like about Tengwar - it's very individual. Earniel did 2 s's in a row, instead of doubling an s, which is totally fine and totally readable. I reminded her of the doubling option just in case she forgot and she was interested, but if she doesn't want to use it, fine And the same way with the silent e. I hope I didn't come off sounding like a Tengwar policeman, because I didn't mean it that way; I just meant to remind her of features she may have forgotten.

[Earniel]

Oh don't worry, RÃ*an, I know you mentioned the doubling mark as a kind suggestion, not a reproach. I appreciate any comment on my tengwar writing, it doesn't by far go as fluid yet as angerthas. Although... I may as easily forget your suggestions (not deliberately, mind you, my mind can be such a sift once in a while) the next time I try my hand on tengwar. I remember you've mentioned the silent 'e' before, but I had (once again) completely forgotten it.

It's just that I try to use the 'source material' on Tengwar, i.o.w. what Tolkien wrote on it, instead of looking at websites. After a few experiences with fake Elvish on websites I've gotten a wee bit carefull about them. With going by the LoTR-appendices I'm absolutely sure that I use a code that other people can read as well.

Because if I'm writing Tengwar the wrong way, there's no real point in my doing it at all. It's such a gorgeous, flowing alphabet (a bit like visual music really), it deserves being written well! I just didn't consider the notes in my LoTR-appendices may not be wholy complete. Is there in Letters or HoME more on how to write tengwar? I can't remember entirely.

I can be a bit of a perfectionist with tengwar. I probably shouldn't worry too much about it, as long as it's readable, I should be fine.

[Rían]

In letter #118, you'll see Tolkien himself use the doubling mark, the s-curl, the silent-e mark, the preceded-by-nasal-of-same-column mark, the "ks" used for "x", and the period and end of paragraph mark. Quite a good reference! All the things that I use come straight from Da Man (he also was in the mood where he reversed his e and i marks - he usually wrote them the other way around, from what I can tell). But I see your point about the appendicies, too - not everyone has "Letters". (and he even has a spelling mistake/omission - he spelled "dear" as "dea"!)

[Beor]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
That's one thing I like about Tengwar - it's very individual. Earniel did 2 s's in a row, instead of doubling an s, which is totally fine and totally readable. I reminded her of the doubling option just in case she forgot and she was interested, but if she doesn't want to use it, fine And the same way with the silent e. I hope I didn't come off sounding like a Tengwar policeman, because I didn't mean it that way; I just meant to remind her of features she may have forgotten.

No, you didnt come off as a Tengwar policeman (), I was just stating that I like the vowel carrier. I didnt mean to come off as angered either, just throwing out the way I like to do it. I didnt mean to be mean, Rian, you know, I's just sayin

[Earniel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
But I see your point about the appendicies, too - not everyone has "Letters". (and he even has a spelling mistake/omission - he spelled "dear" as "dea"!)

"Letters" you say? Now it's really time for me to be embarrassed. Because I own and have read "Letters" and had completely forgotten there was tengwar in it.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Beor
No, you didnt come off as a Tengwar policeman (), I was just stating that I like the vowel carrier. I didnt mean to come off as angered either, just throwing out the way I like to do it. I didnt mean to be mean, Rian, you know, I's just sayin

Nah, you weren't mean you're sweet! I was just making sure you guys didn't think I was being a Tengwar Nazi when all I was doing was mentioning a cool Tengwar thingy that perhaps she forgot, since this thread is a bit old ...

[Beor]

cool

[Rían]

(Hi Beor, I see you're on Did you do your graffiti yet? )

by Eärniel
... and had completely forgotten there was tengwar in it.

Hey, I'm in my 40's - what's your excuse? (Poor Eärniel, too much school lately ... )

[Earniel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Hey, I'm in my 40's - what's your excuse?

*bows head in schame* I have none.



Let's blame it on my exams.

[Beor]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
(Hi Beor, I see you're on Did you do your graffiti yet? )


Hey, I'm in my 40's - what's your excuse? (Poor Eärniel, too much school lately ... )

Yeah, actually, I was on, but the power went out. I wanted to ask you a question (or anyone). How do you do double vowels, such as in "you". I was just wondering, because, (surprise) i dont know

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Beor
Yeah, actually, I was on, but the power went out. I wanted to ask you a question (or anyone). How do you do double vowels, such as in "you". I was just wondering, because, (surprise) i dont know

you can either write out the word letter by letter or you can sound it out (in this case the "ou" sound in "you") as best you can....I would recommend writing each letter out though b/c I don't think that the "ou" sound is represented in the tengwar...I could be wrong though

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Beor
Yeah, actually, I was on, but the power went out. I wanted to ask you a question (or anyone). How do you do double vowels, such as in "you". I was just wondering, because, (surprise) i dont know

I usually stick one above a neigbouring consonant and give the other a little carrier-stick. Dunno if that's the way it's supposed to, though.

[Beor]

Well, thank you, Earniel and Arien, I appriciate it. I was thinking of puting the first vowel on top of a short vowel carrier and the second below it. I figure it can be figured out that way easily enough. But, is that acceptable? I dont want to mess it up too bad (espically when working with tattoos, they tend to stick around )

[Valandil]

You're not thinking of getting a tattoo with "This Place Sucks" are you?

[Beor]

No, something more along the lines of "I dont know yet"

[Rían]

In Letters, JRRT wrote "you" as "yow" - don't know why - maybe something to do with how Brits pronounce the word. IOW, he wrote #23 (consonant 'y'), then the 'o' vowel mark over #22 ('w').

I usually write a 'y' then a 'u' over a carrier, so it reads "yu". I tend to write phoenetic first, unless it's unclear, in which case I'll go to the actual spelling. To me, that seemed to be how JRRT usually did it.

As far as putting the second below the carrier, I think his son did that sometimes, but am not sure... the only way I saw JRRT do it is with the silent 'e' at the end of a word that is sometimes needed in the English language, like to differentiate "hope" from "hop". It's that dot underneath (in fact, "hope" is in letter 118, and he uses the e-dot under the 'p'.) But it's not really used as a vowel that way (IOW, it's not sounded).

[Earniel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I usually write a 'y' then a 'u' over a carrier, so it reads "yu". I tend to write phoenetic first, unless it's unclear, in which case I'll go to the actual spelling. To me, that seemed to be how JRRT usually did it.

I always found that Tengwar was in a way meant to be written phonetically. For me, that's getting a tad too difficult when I'm writing in English code. English has different sounds than Dutch so the English phonetics are proving to be a wee bit of a challege for me. I don't think in English, I think in Dutch. That's why I prefer to write the words as they are written in our own alphabet. You won't see me writting 'see' for 'sea' for instance, or 'yu' for 'you' simply I wouldn't understand what I wrote when I would read it later.

[Rían]

Oh, that's a good point - I didn't think about the different phonetic sounds of different languages. I bet JRRT had no idea how many people would be interested in writing his Tengwar!