REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Drgnslyer
Jesus actually had said that god should be worshipped within yourself, and recognize his love within your own soul, and in the world around you...

got a reference?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Falagar
I just started the NT, by the way. Just to please you, RÃ*an.

Oh, how nice, Falagar! (even tho you put in a winkie-smilie ) Is this the first time you've read it? Are you reading it in order? Let us know what you think, and I'll try to answer any questions you might have, if you're interested in my opinion as a long-time Christian

[Rían]

Originally posted by Valandil
got a reference?

Ditto (altho I think I know the verse you mean...but you take it way out of context, IMO)

Originally posted by Drgnslyer
I recognize the bible as an incredible story combining religion and history...although I also recognize that it has been re-written numerous times, and has lost some of it's origional accuracy.

and numbers/stats please, for this, because I disagree with the part after the "...".

[Drgnslyer]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Ditto (altho I think I know the verse you mean...but you take it way out of context, IMO)


and numbers/stats please, for this, because I disagree with the part after the "...".

RE-written as in little additions along hte way...like heretic which was not there before king james was so kind to add it...

As for the reference, i'll have that soon *I'ts been a while and i have ot find it again*

[Mercutio]

By re-written, do you mean different translations that interpret things differently? Remember--the original languages aren't easy to translate/read if people even can still do that. What one word was that was added in, for example, the King James version, could have been present in the original right? But no one knew what it was in the original.

Do you have other "little additions"?

Just curious.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Drgnslyer
RE-written as in little additions along hte way...like heretic which was not there before king james was so kind to add it...

As for the reference, i'll have that soon *I'ts been a while and i have ot find it again*

I don't understand about the "heretic" thing ... where do you mean? Did I miss something?

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Drgnslyer
RE-written as in little additions along hte way...like heretic which was not there before king james was so kind to add it...

I believe that the word "heresy" was always present in the Bible. The Greek word was "hairesis", meaning choice, however in classical authors it can refer to a philosophical school which the individual chooses to follow. In the New Testanment, the word is used to mean "party", such as a sect of the religion. The Sadducees and Pharisess are examples of these sects, or "heresies" (I Cor. 6:19). The word "heresy" in the modern sense (doctrinal error) occurs first in 2 Peter 2:1, and later when Gnosticism and Docetism is considered heretical.

The divisions of the church (sects) discussed above are regarded in Gal. 5:20 as work of the flesh and a breach of mutual charity, so that the "heretic", one who chooses to follow his own group, is to be rejected (Tit. 3:10)

I'm not sure if that helped or not, however...

Why would it matter what word was used in the translation, as long as it accurately matches the original word and meaning (such as that in the Greek)?

[Valandil]

btw Drgnslyer (can I just spell out 'Dragonslayer'... for short? ) I hope you don't feel 'ganged-up on'... I'm sure that's not our intent. It's just a natural thing for us Christians who HAVE thought through our faith to rush to its defense if we think it is being misrepresented, or to speak up in the case where we think our faith is being misunderstood.

In your case, you're leading me to guess that you misunderstand Christianity. I'll say no more about that part until you have a chance to respond to the earlier part, and maybe spell out a little more. Then it would be easier to more accurately address areas where you might misunderstand our faith.

[Drgnslyer]

Originally posted by Valandil
btw Drgnslyer (can I just spell out 'Dragonslayer'... for short? ) I hope you don't feel 'ganged-up on'... I'm sure that's not our intent. It's just a natural thing for us Christians who HAVE thought through our faith to rush to its defense if we think it is being misrepresented, or to speak up in the case where we think our faith is being misunderstood.

In your case, you're leading me to guess that you misunderstand Christianity. I'll say no more about that part until you have a chance to respond to the earlier part, and maybe spell out a little more. Then it would be easier to more accurately address areas where you might misunderstand our faith.

sorry guys, i've been sick for the past few days....

There are many aspects to every religion that have their dark points. I myself am a witch, and as you can likely understand why some of my views *although not all by any means* on christianity are not all bright and shiny like the church would like to see it....there are many dark days in the church's past...the crusades not being the least of them, and there are many dark days in the past of witchcraft.....both religions also have amazing bright points, and both religions, although on the surface polar opposites, when you look closer they're very similar afterall.

I'm a firm believer that all religions are simply different interpretations on the same structure...I do believe in god, in Pan*among other names*, in allah, in zeus, in marduk and Ea, in Ra, in Thor, in Budda.......you get the point

I think that anyone seriously involved in religion should know their religion....One problem that i've had with the GENERAL POPULUS of christianity *note: not all christians, but most* simply take what is told to them and accept it at face value. Many people have simply gone with what the church has said, and have turned a blind eye to atrocities in the past...Myself I shudder at the thought of warring over religious differences...we're all made of the same stuff, we all come from the same place, and we all go to the same place. My opinions on any potential afterlife I'll keep to myself as to most they will seem very strong and unfounded as there is no hard proof for or against them....all that can be given as proof is powerful testimonials that I have seen time and time again from very strong sources......matching with my own experiences.

Regardless, I digress...

The passages in the bible that I have been referring to I havn't tracked down yet, it's been quite a few years since i've read the bible, and although I remember reading it, I can't recall exactly where off the top of my head...the search resumes...

I've had some people slam pagan religions, or worse yet, religions other than their own for the sole fact that they do not understand it and have been *sorry to be blunt* too ignorant to open their eyes to the possibilities that *gasp* their religion may have stronger ties to the others than they would origionally think...or that thier religion's 'official' stance on social issues may somehow be wrong...*REALLY...the world IS flat...to say otherwise is akin to devil worship*

All I'm trying to do is to get people to open their eyes a little bit to the possibilities that they havn't looked at yet...even if you don't ultimately agree, so be it, each person is their own person, and you cannot, and should not be force fed your beliefs...after all, personal belief cannot be defined as something someone has forced into your head...

*whew*

I'm still a little ill *why i've been away for a few days* but Nurv told me that I should come in here and give another piece or two.

again Valandil, I appreciate your post there...and the whole Drgnslyer spelling came from a friend in highschool years ago, and i've used it for literally years in an online game called Utopia

* www.swirve.com *
-click on games
-click on utopia

I think that covers the bases....

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Drgnslyer
There are many aspects to every religion that have their dark points. I myself am a witch, and as you can likely understand why some of my views *although not all by any means* on christianity are not all bright and shiny like the church would like to see it....there are many dark days in the church's past...the crusades not being the least of them, and there are many dark days in the past of witchcraft.....both religions also have amazing bright points, and both religions, although on the surface polar opposites, when you look closer they're very similar afterall.

Do you know enough about Christianity to make that kind of comparison? What you say about their being some similarities might be true- I'd like to hear some examples, though.

I'm a firm believer that all religions are simply different interpretations on the same structure...I do believe in god, in Pan*among other names*, in allah, in zeus, in marduk and Ea, in Ra, in Thor, in Budda.......you get the point

I'm afraid that really doesn't make sense. You can't believe that one man Jesus Christ saved everyone from their sins at the same time as believing that no one needed to be saved from their sins at all. That no one needs forgiveness. You can't believe in Allah (God is ONE) and Greek mythology (Gods are many) at the same time. The differences are severe between these religions. Many religions are severely different, and often intolerant of each other. For example in the Bible, "You shall have no God but me." Seeking other gods is counted as akin to adultery.

Yes, there are common beliefs from religion to religion, but I think you'd find yourself hard pressed to be able to make them similar.

I think that anyone seriously involved in religion should know their religion....

I definitely agree.

One problem that i've had with the GENERAL POPULUS of christianity *note: not all christians, but most* simply take what is told to them and accept it at face value.

Seems a rather sweeping statement to make. Have you met the general populus of Christianity?
[QUOTE]Many people have simply gone with what the church has said, and have turned a blind eye to atrocities in the past...Myself I shudder at the thought of warring over religious differences...we're all made of the same stuff, we all come from the same place, and we all go to the same place. My opinions on any potential afterlife I'll keep to myself as to most they will seem very strong and unfounded as there is no hard proof for or against them....all that can be given as proof is powerful testimonials that I have seen time and time again from very strong sources......matching with my own experiences.[/QUOTE
Well, we Christians are far from disagreeing with the existence of religious experience. I'd be very surprised if, being involved in witchcraft, you hadn't had experiences and testimonies. Christians and people of other faiths also have had such things. Budhists and Hindus go into deep meditation and find Oneness with God. Christians have had numerous experiences of many kinds. It would be too long a post if I went into them.

All I'm trying to do is to get people to open their eyes a little bit to the possibilities that they havn't looked at yet...even if you don't ultimately agree, so be it, each person is their own person, and you cannot, and should not be force fed your beliefs...after all, personal belief cannot be defined as something someone has forced into your head...

I certainly agree that Christians should seek God, rather than merely accepting what they're told. There is something to be said too for openmindedness.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
I'm afraid that really doesn't make sense. You can't believe that one man Jesus Christ saved everyone from their sins at the same time as believing that no one needed to be saved from their sins at all. That no one needs forgiveness. You can't believe in Allah (God is ONE) and Greek mythology (Gods are many) at the same time. The differences are severe between these religions. Many religions are severely different, and often intolerant of each other. For example in the Bible, "You shall have no God but me." Seeking other gods is counted as akin to adultery.

I dont think he was saying hes an active member of every world religion. I believe his point was that he feels that there is a thread of truth that joins ALL religions but that goes well beyond the specific details of the religions. Im of the opinion that spirituality is something thats IN us as a species but that we cant really grasp it in a rational way so we lay a vail over the unseeable and embrace that covering as the Truth. When in fact its just an artificial man made covering on something invisible and profound. In essence religions are reflections of that unatainable spirituality that weve struggled with for the past 100,000 years or so. We desperately need to flesh out the unknown and tacking on lots of little details onto the unknown is how we make ourselves comfortable. the vail allows us to dress up what we cant see directly. In some cases the "dressing up" is simple and plain while in some cases its arnate and elaborate. some religions (or philosophies) treat it as symbolic and are in touch with the concept of the uncharted depth of spirituality while some religions are very rigid and have evolved to the point where the symbol has become the truth in the eyes of its followers. this can be dangerous of course because when the esoteric is defined as the Ultimate and the Only then all other interpretations of the esoteric are heresey. and this leads to conflict, intollerance and strife. Yes religions are different but when it comes down to it theres many underlying commonalities between them. And THIS is probably wear true spirituality lies. In that nether world beyond comprehension but still within our sensing.

Anyway I got off on a tangent there.... Just saying thats how I interpreted what he said. But Ill shut up and let him speak for himself.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
I dont think he was saying hes an active member of every world religion. I believe his point was that he feels that there is a thread of truth that joins ALL religions but that goes well beyond the specific details of the religions. Im of the opinion that spirituality is something thats IN us as a species but that we cant really grasp it in a rational way so we lay a vail over the unseeable and embrace that covering as the Truth. When in fact its just an artificial man made covering on something invisible and profound. In essence religions are reflections of that unatainable spirituality that weve struggled with for the past 100,000 years or so. We desperately need to flesh out the unknown and tacking on lots of little details onto the unknown is how we make ourselves comfortable. the vail allows us to dress up what we cant see directly. and in some cases the "dressing up" is simple and plain in some cases its arnate and elaborate. some religions (or philosophies) treat it as symbolic and are in touch with the concept of the uncharted depth of spirituality while some religions are very rigid and have evolved to the point where they the symbol has become the truth in the eyes of its followers. this can be dangerous of course because when the esoteric is defined as the Ultimate and the Only then all other interpretations of the esoteric are heresey. and this leads to conflict, intollerance and strife. Yes religions are different but when it comes down to it theres many underlying commonalities between them. And THIS is probably wear true spirituality lies. In that nether world beyond comprehension but still within our sensing.

Anyway I got off on a tangent there.... Just saying thats how I interpreted what he said. But Ill shut up and let him speak for himself.

In other words (let me know if I'm mis-stating), you don't believe that ANY SINGLE religion is really true? Some of us, on the other hand, believe that a particular religion is true... and that there IS ultimate truth.

[Insidious Rex]

right. you worship your vail. in most forms of christianity the details of the religion ARE the religion. not the underlying spirituality behind it. thats what ive observed.

[Valandil]

Well, the great architect, Mies Van Der Rohe said, 'God is in the details'... on the other hand, Ross Perot said, 'The Devil is in the details'...

[Valandil]

Joking aside though, in Christianity, as the name implies, Jesus Christ should be THE issue... and His life, teachings and claims are quite unique among world religions. Some have observed that He cannot be dismissed as just 'a good man' - because if the claims He made about Himself were untrue, He wasn't good at all. He was either who He claimed to be... or else He was a liar or a lunatic. In fact, given His moral authority, OTHER religions have to figure out how he fits into what they believe... (ie, the Buddhists will say this about him, the Hindus will say that, Jews will say one thing and Moslems another... they ALL feel compelled to address the issue) Christianity doesn't have that problem with leading figures of other faiths. Jesus Christ is quite singular.

[Insidious Rex]

Well I guess you could put me in the lunatic camp. But I REALLY dont like that word. I think the best guess would be that he was a rare man with a gift. With many gifts in fact. The obvious ones like overwelming charisma and gargantuan empathy for his fellow man. But most importantly I think we could say he had some focus on his spirituality that most others lacked. Now I know yer sitting there saying OH MY GOD! OF COURSE HE DID! HES GOD! But work with me here... Im just saying how I interpret it. The more I learn about Jesus (and this applies to Muhammod too and some other singular individuals who were at the genisis of world religions) the more I see a common thread. If he had been born in pre history I believe he would have been a shaman like figure. He would have used his spiritual gift in what ever era he lived in.(well maybe not now. He might have become a politician now. or a talk show host...). Individuals in touch with their spirituality to a level that is somehow more then human have often be labled as insane through out history. Shamans themselves were often though of as bad news in some ways but a necessary tool to have around. Their power and their dramatic difference from others spooked people and intimidated them but what "the common folk" beleived they could do made them invaluable parts of their cultures. for this reason they were usually found on the outskirts of settlements because people didnt want them too close but wanted them within reach nonetheless. Anyway I think the Jesus figure falls well within the boundries of the gifted spiritualist. Now the religion that evolved from his existance seems an echo or a ripple of the original geniuous of his approach toward spirituality. But its been echoing for 2000 years now and now the echo has become the important thing. And as we know echoes can distort over time the original sound.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Valandil
Joking aside though, in Christianity, as the name implies, Jesus Christ should be THE issue... and His life, teachings and claims are quite unique among world religions. Some have observed that He cannot be dismissed as just 'a good man' - because if the claims He made about Himself were untrue, He wasn't good at all. He was either who He claimed to be... or else He was a liar or a lunatic. In fact, given His moral authority, OTHER religions have to figure out how he fits into what they believe... (ie, the Buddhists will say this about him, the Hindus will say that, Jews will say one thing and Moslems another... they ALL feel compelled to address the issue) Christianity doesn't have that problem with leading figures of other faiths. Jesus Christ is quite singular.

Ah, the old (and long deflated) Trilemma- "mad, bad, or glad".

There have been plenty of figures throughout history who have claimed to be the Chosen One, without necessarily being "lunatics" in the certifiable sense.

I don't see how other religions have any particular problem dealing with Jesus. To Jews, he's simply the most popular of many False Messiahs; to Muslims he's a prophet whose life and teachings were distorted by followers corrupted with Hellenistic paganism.

Hindus and Buddhists, when they think about him at all, regard him as a spiritual and ethical teacher like many thousands of others, who was unfortunately too mired in the limitations of his local traditions to see through the veils of Illusion and grasp the real Truth.

Exactly the same way that Christianity regards leading figures of other faiths- that is, when it's not condemning them as tools of Satan who will burn in Hell forever.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Valandil
Joking aside though, in Christianity, as the name implies, Jesus Christ should be THE issue... and His life, teachings and claims are quite unique among world religions. Some have observed that He cannot be dismissed as just 'a good man' - because if the claims He made about Himself were untrue, He wasn't good at all. He was either who He claimed to be... or else He was a liar or a lunatic. In fact, given His moral authority, OTHER religions have to figure out how he fits into what they believe... (ie, the Buddhists will say this about him, the Hindus will say that, Jews will say one thing and Moslems another... they ALL feel compelled to address the issue) Christianity doesn't have that problem with leading figures of other faiths. Jesus Christ is quite singular.

i understand that your intentions are good... but the idea that any one religion is "singular" is the very essence of why i find religious orthodoxy so problematic... no matter how reasonable you are, when you create an "us and them" trouble follows

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i understand that your intentions are good... but the idea that any one religion is "singular" is the very essence of why i find religious orthodoxy so problematic... no matter how reasonable you are, when you create an "us and them" trouble follows

Then it becomes a matter of what the priority is... if I, or someone else, thinks we have found 'truth'... what's more important: proclaiming truth or keeping the peace?

[brownjenkins]

that's probably the root of our difference... i do not think there is one "truth" to be found... and if there is, i think it somewhat presumptious for any one group to claim they know it... however, this is exactly what the various religions of the world do... and each and every one has it's "evidence" as to why it's to only real "truth"

truth's should be self-evident to all, or they are simply not truths... or at least not everyone's truths

i'd make a reasonable compromise to keep the peace any day... i have my principles, but i try not to hold them on principle alone, if you know what i mean

i realize it's a somewhat idealic pov... but one has to start somewhere

all that being said... many religions hold truths that are in alignment to those of western society at large, or are relatively harmless if they are not... the main problem is when religious truths conflict with the idea of a democratic and free society