03-30-2006, 11:02 AM | #801 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
03-30-2006, 11:07 AM | #802 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Me too. Except when it comes to Hollywood.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
03-30-2006, 11:22 AM | #803 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Brownjenkins, remember that I posted these things too:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||
03-30-2006, 12:16 PM | #804 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
I know. I just like to remind people from time to time. Sometimes people get a bit to caught up in dogma and forget that in then end, the route to peace is learning to understand and work with our differences. Differences which will always exist.
You are not going to change muslims overnight, or change christians or jews for that matter. But hopefully at least a few babysteps can be taken by each generation.
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
03-30-2006, 06:28 PM | #805 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
I think Islam is very deeply intertwined with the culture of countries who have historically been predominantly Muslim, like Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. Sometimes it's hard to separate culture from religion, for example, Sharia law.
When people move to another country they bring their culture with them. Maybe this is part of the problem too.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||
03-30-2006, 09:07 PM | #806 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
The reason democracy is suppressed by Islam is that Islam was originally intended to tie together all the laws people needed to follow in life. It was supposed to encompass what we think of as religion, as well as politics and social and economic life. It had laws for all of those things. It was a religion that instructed people in the details of their lives. Culture was part of the religion, and politics also were supposed to be part of the observance of Islam. Christianity wasn't at all like that. Jesus said, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." He taught giving the state what was due it and God what was due him, and taught that these were two different things. But Islam enmeshes state and religion together. It fuses culture, economics, politics and religion all together and makes them one. That's a key reason why Islam hasn't separated religion and culture. Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||
03-30-2006, 11:34 PM | #807 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Interesting insights Lief! I wasn't trying to say that religion always/sometimes supresses democracy.
Maybe the lack of separation between mosque and state in, say, Iran is more cultural than religious. After all most Iraqis are Muslim and they have an elected President. Iran has an ayatollah (sp?) which has something to do with religion, I think. I'm venturing into territory about which I know nothing, but I wanted to point out that Iran and Iraq are very, very different countries and both has predominantly Muslim populations. Quote:
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
03-31-2006, 11:57 AM | #808 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Turkey is also an example of a democratic muslim country.
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
03-31-2006, 05:27 PM | #809 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
I realize there are a small handful of exceptions. According to Amnesty International, there are severe limits to freedom of expression in Turkey, and a Los Angeles Times article also indicated their democracy really could be doing better. But there are a small handful of exceptions.
The Palestinians do have a very real democratic process set up, and the Iraqis too. Though in Iraq, the democracy only exists because of coalition intervention in the country. Indonesia, a really big Muslim country, also has in very recent years formed a successful democratic process. Real democracy exists only in a tiny minority of the Middle Eastern Muslim nations, however. Sometimes there's lipservice to a democracy (Egypt), but it's far from real in practice. A critical reason for this is the nature of the Muslim religion. I think this is a critically important point: Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-31-2006 at 05:36 PM. |
|
03-31-2006, 05:35 PM | #810 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
I don't agree. I think it has a lot more to do with the history of the region. Countries have been in the hands of absolute or near absolute monarchs for centuries. Something the West perpetuatued after WW2 because we thought it would be easier to deal with monarchs than democracy. Saddam Hussien was secular, not muslim.
You only have to look back 50 to a 100 years to see a vastly christian Europe that was as far from democracy as the middle east is today. In fact, christian nations have a longer history of being undemocratic than muslim ones do.
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
03-31-2006, 06:32 PM | #811 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|||
03-31-2006, 07:32 PM | #812 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Cromwell's revolt in England was a short spurt in a long and glorious (though hardly unstained) monarchy in England, which didn't have its (apparent) final death blow struck until much later.
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
03-31-2006, 08:07 PM | #813 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Quote:
Iraq is largely regarded as the cradle of civilization, with the Sumerian empire starting between the Tigres and the Euphrates rivers. This was much before Islam's (and Christanity's) begginnings.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
03-31-2006, 08:10 PM | #814 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
thank god for the blackdeath.
else what democracy would there have been in the whole western world maybe? Single greatest historical event - the blackdeath - the effective end of Serfdom- the start of freedom! Nurv - for Muslims Jesus is a prophet- the healer - but he came later than other prophets- so that seems a little odd? Last edited by Butterbeer : 03-31-2006 at 08:22 PM. |
03-31-2006, 08:12 PM | #815 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Why is that odd? Jesus was a holy man, and the Muslims regarded him as such. That's why he's the fourth prophet. Doesn't seem odd to me.
Think how long it took to write the Bible! You can't just make a religion in a couple weeks! People are going to keep adding to it, as people contribute to Christianity and Islam to this day.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||
03-31-2006, 08:20 PM | #816 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
you said Islam was younger?
yet he was a later prophet. they got a time machine or something there Nurv? |
03-31-2006, 08:39 PM | #817 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
But Islam was founded in the 7th century! See? I'm confused.
Muhamed was born in 570 AD and Islam was founded in 622 AD. linkage. Islam honours the Old Testament prophets (?) like Abraham and Moses. I guess the prophets of Islam are first Muhamed, then Abraham and Moses, then Jesus. In the date they were added? edit: Mary is considered very holy but is not a prophet.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||
03-31-2006, 09:34 PM | #818 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-31-2006 at 10:19 PM. |
||
03-31-2006, 10:30 PM | #819 | ||||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
03-31-2006, 10:43 PM | #820 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
I highly doubt it. I would guess it's some highly primitive beast cult, by that criterion.
Quote:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Increased Islamic Influence in European Nations | inked | General Messages | 198 | 03-20-2011 06:36 AM |
muslims PART 2 | Spock | General Messages | 805 | 02-03-2011 03:16 AM |
The media | Butterbeer | General Messages | 102 | 11-07-2006 12:54 PM |
Was Hitler Christian,Athiest,Savior-Madman) FACTS welcomed along with your opinions | brownjenkins | General Messages | 203 | 08-07-2006 05:48 PM |
RELIGIOUS Debate on Terroristm-who, why, etc. | Spock | General Messages | 215 | 09-06-2005 11:56 PM |