01-06-2004, 12:48 AM | #801 | ||
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I understand, and thank you for your nice compliment.
I would say the term "anthropocentric" is appropriate too, but I know what you mean now. I didn't quite explain that right, mostly because I am not qualified to explain a higher being/power/energy/???. There is no room for several concepts in the human mind. One is infinity, another is nothingness, and another is what the Creator is. I personally am glad that I don't understand the latter anyway. I don't think we are meant to understand the Universe. (Insert appropriate Douglas Adams quote here.) Keeping the above in mind, I will continue to explain my ideas in an anthropocentric way since it's easier to explain and understand, and also impossible to avoid completely. Cheers, Nurv
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01-06-2004, 02:47 PM | #802 | |
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01-07-2004, 01:28 AM | #803 | |
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Let's apply some logic here. Given the following premise : If a God exists that created our universe ... then: what conditions would be necessary for us to NOT comprehend him in any meaningful way? I can think of two conditions: 1) Despite the fact that He created the universe, He's not powerful or smart enough to communicate a meaningful idea of Himself to people; or 2) Despite the fact that He created the universe, and that He is powerful and smart enough to communicate a meaningful idea of Himself to people, He has no desire to do this. Would you guys agree with this? Do you have other options?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-07-2004, 03:14 AM | #804 | ||
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Though we cannot fully comprehend God, we can have a meaningful conception of God.
Thanks for pointing that out R*an. It would damage my theory if I had absolute statements in it, either direct or implied.
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01-07-2004, 01:54 PM | #805 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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You're welcome, Nurvi. Christian theology states that God's great desire is a loving relationship with the people He has created, and that His character may clearly be seen and understood (at a VERY meaningful level, tho obviously not fully) thru the beauty and power of creation and thru the morality in our heart (God is a moral being that makes choices, and we are made in His image, acc'd to the Bible). And His character can be understood further thru the Bible, but not everyone has access to the Bible (or they have access, but don't want to read it) - that's why the creation/morality way of understanding exists, too.
I think to accept the idea that people can't have a meaningful concept of God, one must accept one of the 2 things I listed above. The first one is rather silly, and the second one doesn't make a lot of sense, either, and BOTH are against Christian theology. Remember that tho the existence of God can't be formally, logically proven, one can formally, logically examine statements about Him and see if the deductions from these statements make sense. And I don't see any problem with absolutes, BTW; you just need to examine them and see if the implications/deductions make sense. When I recover from surgery, I'd like to start up the absolute truth discussion over in the Offshoot thread, and I'd love to see you there! IMO, there are many LOGICAL problems (in the sense of statements that contain formal logical errors and contradict observation) with deductions from the statement that there are no absolute truths. Have fun in your class, Hobbit! Ask her about the problems with genetic load, when you get to the mutations section, if you feel like it.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-07-2004, 03:16 PM | #806 | |
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01-07-2004, 03:51 PM | #807 |
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I really must protest. Nurv, you can't create an anthropocentric universe and allow Evolution to govern it. Evolution is by nature chance-oriented. You said earlier (something like this) that we are small beings that evolution has selected to change and become the top of the food chain on this planet. But then you say that your theory is anthropocentric. It can't be. That would be assuming that all other beings in the universe more evolved than we had to at some point go through a "human" stage. I don't know if I'm saying this right. but anyway, you can't assume that all more evolved beings were at one time humans or human derivatives. There are far to many variables to allow this to happen.
In evolution theory, the process that happened on earth is not the only process. It is one of millions (billions) which just so happened to be the best on this planet. THis is assuming that once the Creator started things off he did not intervene and (shall we say) "tweak" evolution to favor humans. Besides (if you've read Origin of Species and Perservation of Favored Races) you know that Darwin created his theory so that he wouldn't have to have a God involved to mess things up. Evolution is, again, by nature, atheistic. Sorry to rave there... had a weird moment. Also: Another option would be that since God is infinite and we are finite, we cannot comprehend Him no matter how hard we try, simply because we are not equipped with the mental capacites to do so.
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I'M NOT A PIRATE! I'M A REDISTRIBUTION ECONOMIST! Marketing Supervisor and Everything Girl for Entmoot's "Lord of the Rings" Avatar Courtesy of "Ye Olde Avatare Shoppe" Sounds like a job for... UBERGEEK!" (special thanks to Finrod Felagund!) I try to make everyone's day a bit more surreal. Funny Error Messages... "Cannot find REALITY.SYS...Universe Halted." "Enter any 11-digit prime number to continue..." "Bad Command or File Name. Good try, though." "WARNING: Keyboard Not Attached. Press F10 to Continue." "I have a spelling checker It came with my PC; It plainly marks four my revue Mistakes I cannot sea. I've run this poem threw it, I'm sure your pleased too no, Its letter perfect in it's weigh, My checker tolled me sew." -Janet Minor "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history - with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence." Last edited by Nariel : 01-07-2004 at 03:55 PM. |
01-07-2004, 04:05 PM | #808 | |||
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01-07-2004, 04:25 PM | #809 |
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speaking of putting human attributes on "god"... maybe the idea that there is an overall "purpose" to the universe and that we, as a tniy part of it, are even under consideration is a bit anthropocentric
when you speak of us not being able to comprehend god... might this go the other way also... could a god this incomprehensibly different from us be expected to understand us any better? i also don't think that a creator has to be all-knowing or all-powerful... just very powerful
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01-07-2004, 05:05 PM | #810 | ||
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So you're still saying that He could create the whole universe but not be smart/powerful enough to create our brains in such a way that we could have meaningful (but limited) comprehension of Him (option 1), or He could create the whole universe but decide to leave out the capacity in our brains to have some meaningful comprehension of Him, because He doesn't want to communicate with us. I don't see anything outside of my 2 options in your proposed options, unless I'm misunderstanding your options - please let me know if I am.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-07-2004, 05:10 PM | #811 | ||
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BTW, this is also against Christian doctrine, as it is said that we are made in the image of God, so we are actually v. much like Him *tries unsuccessfully to create a few stars* - but to a lesser degree, in the same sense that my young son is v. like his father, but not as strong, and not as wise (and not as cute!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-07-2004, 06:27 PM | #812 | |
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01-07-2004, 06:30 PM | #813 | |||||||||
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Woah, I'm getting behind here.
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I didn't say that my theory itself is anthropocentric, just that the way I would describe it would be. This is only because I'm not any good at thinking other than how a human thinks. Quote:
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I haven't read Origin of Species, but I did study it a bit last year. The point of my theory is to meld two seemingly opposite points of view. Darwinism with God creating the Universe and all life. (Originally I said Darwinism and Creationism, but Creationism is actually extremely set in its ideas. There isn't room in my theory for rigidity or absolute statements, so I'm not incorporating it any more, only parts.)[/b][/quote] Quote:
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The prime example of this for Christians is Jesus giving his life for our sins. 2000 years later, his teachings are still important and relevant, and his sacrifice for us is moving and powerful. I don't feel that I'm explaining such an incredible and wonderful event properly, but it did help Christians understand something about God. Sometimes were not sure what it is (I'm not), but the understanding is there. I'm sure all religions have equally meaningful and important teachings or events that help them understand God better. Cheers, Nurv Appendix: I think definitions of "anthropocentric" and "anthropomorphize" should be posted for the assistance of all. I could only find anthropomorphize: "Attribute human form or personality to (God etc. or abs.). Hence ~ISM, ~IST."
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01-08-2004, 12:04 AM | #814 |
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anthropocentric means that the theory (or whatever is under discussion) is centered on humans.
BTW, Nurv, your theory is nothing new. It's been around since just after 1859 (HEY, that's when OoS came out!). I don't mean to take away your inventor's joy, but that's the truth. Question that is kind of off topic: Why do you assume that a collision of some sort wiped out the dinosaurs? Also: We live in a universe that would not exist without absolutes... Where do you draw the line? I have lots more to say, but I prefer to address specific issues rather than broad ideas.
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I'M NOT A PIRATE! I'M A REDISTRIBUTION ECONOMIST! Marketing Supervisor and Everything Girl for Entmoot's "Lord of the Rings" Avatar Courtesy of "Ye Olde Avatare Shoppe" Sounds like a job for... UBERGEEK!" (special thanks to Finrod Felagund!) I try to make everyone's day a bit more surreal. Funny Error Messages... "Cannot find REALITY.SYS...Universe Halted." "Enter any 11-digit prime number to continue..." "Bad Command or File Name. Good try, though." "WARNING: Keyboard Not Attached. Press F10 to Continue." "I have a spelling checker It came with my PC; It plainly marks four my revue Mistakes I cannot sea. I've run this poem threw it, I'm sure your pleased too no, Its letter perfect in it's weigh, My checker tolled me sew." -Janet Minor "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history - with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence." |
01-08-2004, 12:59 AM | #815 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(Nariel - I love the "Aragorn" and the "Owl" lines in your sig!!! I like the REAL Winnie-the-Pooh, and the ORIGINAL illustrations by Ernest Shepherd, which are incredibly beautiful, IMO)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-08-2004, 01:14 AM | #816 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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However, that does NOT mean that we cannot apply logical thinking to statements about God. And the statement that you made, "a creator force is well beyond us", can be subjected to logical analysis. And I continue to think that given that statement (and again, assuming that by "well beyond us", you mean beyond ANY meaningful comprehension), there are only 2 valid logical deductions that can be made, which I will repeat: 1) Despite the fact that He created the universe, He's not powerful or smart enough to communicate a meaningful idea of Himself to people; or 2) Despite the fact that He created the universe, and that He is powerful and smart enough to communicate a meaningful idea of Himself to people, He has no desire to do this. Now I would like to venture a statement: If there is a God that is powerful and wise enough to create the Universe, it is a reasonable possibility to think that He would want to communicate with us. Now given that statement, a logical deduction would be that He would make us, and our environment, in such a way that we could have a limited, but very meaningful, comprehension of Him. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 01-08-2004 at 01:17 AM. |
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01-08-2004, 02:27 AM | #817 | |||||
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1. That the Creator did create the Universe and all life, and is the sole being to do this. 2. That evolution exists and does occur. It may not be exactly as Darwin conjectured, but it occurs none the less. Possibly others. What is OoS?
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01-08-2004, 09:19 AM | #818 | |
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Oh boy...the thread that never ends!
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Sorry! I didn't manipulate the quote very well! hope this makes readable sense.
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 01-08-2004 at 10:33 AM. |
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01-08-2004, 12:36 PM | #819 |
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OoS: Origin of Species: didn't want to write the whole thing out.
Also, I have several problems with the Collision theory on many levels. I will point out a few of my problems: There is far too much evidence for the coexistance of dinosaurs and humans. There are cave drawings as little as 3000 years old of dinosaurs attacking mammoths. Marco Polo reported seeing a dinosaur (alive and well) in one of his expeditions. Modern tribes worship giant lizards which they feed. Many of the modern (that's saying in the last 500 years) historians have reported seeing flying lizards and huge reptiles alive in their time. These are only a few examples of evidence that dinosaurs not only coexisted with humans, but were (and possible still are) alive until quite recent times. Also, there is simply not enough time for rodents to develop into humans in just 60 million years. It's an established fact that the genetic difference between the most human-like ape and the most ape-like human is about 300 mutations. Now, most mutations are negative. I'm talking about 300 BENEFICIAL mutations. These only occur very rarely (if at all). There has never been a documented beneficial mutation actually observed. So let"s say (just for kicks) that a mutation (which don"t occur very often) occurs once every five hundred years. And one out of every thousand mutations (and that is being generous) is beneficial. So we have three hundred thousand mutations to get from the most human-like ape to the most ape-like human. Given that mutations occur once every five hundred years (a very small amount of time for evolution) we would need (by simple multiplication) one hundred and fifty million years just to get from ape ancestors to humans. That"s more than twice the amount of time since you say the dinosaurs died out. Do you see where I have a problem? Or several? (BTW, my keyboard went nuts so that's why I typed out all the numbers... they didn't work. That"also why all my apostrophes are quotation marks...)
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I'M NOT A PIRATE! I'M A REDISTRIBUTION ECONOMIST! Marketing Supervisor and Everything Girl for Entmoot's "Lord of the Rings" Avatar Courtesy of "Ye Olde Avatare Shoppe" Sounds like a job for... UBERGEEK!" (special thanks to Finrod Felagund!) I try to make everyone's day a bit more surreal. Funny Error Messages... "Cannot find REALITY.SYS...Universe Halted." "Enter any 11-digit prime number to continue..." "Bad Command or File Name. Good try, though." "WARNING: Keyboard Not Attached. Press F10 to Continue." "I have a spelling checker It came with my PC; It plainly marks four my revue Mistakes I cannot sea. I've run this poem threw it, I'm sure your pleased too no, Its letter perfect in it's weigh, My checker tolled me sew." -Janet Minor "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history - with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence." Last edited by Nariel : 01-08-2004 at 12:38 PM. |
01-08-2004, 02:50 PM | #820 | |||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 01-08-2004 at 02:51 PM. |
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