Theological Opinions

[Lief Erikson]

Free will vs. predestination isn't an extremely important subject though, in my view. It has little relevance in how we live our lives or in what our relationships with God look like.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Rather, he pointed out his grandeur as evidence of how high above us he is, and then argued that people are quite arrogant when they assume that their knowledge is equal to God's on this matter.

This should be read and digested by many posters.

[Rían]

I disagree with a lot of your points, Lief.

Rad, would you please answer my 2 posts when you get some time?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I disagree with a lot of your points, Lief.

I knew you would. I know that your view is more of a cross between predestination and free will, the logic of which I never have really grasped. I'm not saying that there's no human responsibility either. We do have a participation in what occurs. We experience things and do things and share in the blame. In the final analysis however, God is behind all things and teaches those he loves through all events.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Jews carved the following inscription on the wall of a cellar they were hiding in, during the Holocaust:

"I believe in the sun, even when it is not shining. I believe in love, even when there's no one there. I believe in God, even when he is silent."

But there were many jews that became secular after the holocaust.. and I don't really know what was more common, but I feel it made more sense to stop believing after passing such horrors. After hearing quite some survivors, as far as I recall most of them felt they were abandoned by God. (I actually haven't heard any of them thank God)

It tests the person's faith. It makes people see that they have two choices, endure suffering for God or turn away from God.

Errr, I don't understand - what do you mean, 'suffering for god'?
They would suffer anyway, the question is - if after the suffering they would have the faith to continue believing, or not.

Suffering tests true believers and strengthens them, while at the same time removing from us the hangers-on who lack real conviction and give us a bad name by the things they do.

So you're saying people who used to believe in God but after expiriencing the horrors of the world God created decided to stop believing, are 'hangers-on who lack conviction'?

You know, when Job was tormented in many ways and complained to God, God never tried to squirm out of the responsibility . Rather, he pointed out his grandeur as evidence of how high above us he is, and then argued that people are quite arrogant when they assume that their knowledge is equal to God's on this matter.

I always found it as if the writer tries to avoid answering the question presented in the first 2 chapters.. I expected words of wisdom and got a vague and evading solution to the problem.

Originally Posted by Rian

Why are you blaming God for what man did?

I think that with the great power God has, he also has great responsibility (sounds like Spiderman ). It's sort of like being really powerful, to see the people who trust you being murdered systematically, even industrially, and ignore. It can be compared to the responsibility the US has now, as the leading power in the world today.

And Rad, if you DO think God is responsible in some way (assuming He exists), what do you propose he should have done about it?

Who am I to advise God? But to answer the question - I'm sure he could've done something, if not to stop the murders completely, to minimize the number of murdered.

[inked]

Ah, Lief, the old Reformation errors............ !

Humans have choice and what they do with those choices count. Cf. Adam and Eve, Christ in His humanity, etc, etc.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

But there were many jews that became secular after the holocaust.. and I don't really know what was more common, but I feel it made more sense to stop believing after passing such horrors. After hearing quite some survivors, as far as I recall most of them felt they were abandoned by God. (I actually haven't heard any of them thank God)

I wouldn't expect them to. It's a Christian concept to "give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus."

By the way, Inked or RÃ*an, how would someone who believes in free will respond to that scripture? If some events are men's will rather than God's, how are these events "God's will for you in Christ Jesus"?

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Errr, I don't understand - what do you mean, 'suffering for god'?
They would suffer anyway, the question is - if after the suffering they would have the faith to continue believing, or not.

Sorry, I'm again referring to a Christian concept. Paul talked about doing all things as unto God. Everything we say should be as if it was the very words of God, and every action we make should bring him glory. Unfortunately, we don't always live up to that ideal, but a Christian who suffered in the Holocaust should view it as suffering unto the Lord. I don't know how a Jew should respond to such a tragedy, according to your beliefs.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

So you're saying people who used to believe in God but after expiriencing the horrors of the world God created decided to stop believing, are 'hangers-on who lack conviction'?

Perhaps I was too narrow in my description of those people who leave because of testing. Some are hangers-on who lack conviction. Others are genuine, sincere people. However, people who turn away are not true children of God, though perhaps they are merely straying children of God; if they return to him later on, this would be so.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I always found it as if the writer tries to avoid answering the question presented in the first 2 chapters.. I expected words of wisdom and got a vague and evading solution to the problem.

I don't think God intended to give Job a solution, or a cover-all-bases response. He didn't go and say, "people suffer because of sin." Job was innocent. He was extremely innocent, and yet he suffered in extreme ways as well. God's response could be termed evasive. He didn't give Job the direct answer Job wanted, but he gave Job the answer that he and all humanity needed. That answer was simply that we are in no position to talk back to God. If God's actions are meaningless to us and beyond our understanding, that does not mean that God has no good purpose or reason behind them.

In fact, the only way God could have evaded this dilemma of difference with people is if he brought humans to his level: omniscience. His ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts than our thoughts, according to scripture. He would have to reveal all of his thoughts and ways to us, if we were to understand them. If we don't understand any particular, we probably would choose something which God by nature wouldn't, because our ways are lower and our vision shorter. So we always would naturally be baffled by God's actions to some extent, unless he reveals his purposes to us. That is only natural for a higher being, and a problem of omniscience that we'll just have to endure, while we accept those revelations that come.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Who am I to advise God? But to answer the question - I'm sure he could've done something, if not to stop the murders completely, to minimize the number of murdered.

I'm sure he could have stopped the murders altogether. However, to say that he should have done something assumes that he had no good plan behind what happened. From our limited perspective, we can't make that judgment. We can fight against what evil we encounter, but we can't aren't in a position to judge God for evil's successes. We can't see all that he can, and thus aren't in a good position to judge those of his decisions that baffle us. We can only know what God reveals to us, though we also can guess or form our own ideas about other things, based on our knowledge of the nature of God and on logic.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by inked

Humans have choice and what they do with those choices count. Cf. Adam and Eve, Christ in His humanity, etc, etc.

Tell me, how is it that "God bound all men over to disobedience," (Romans 11:32) if they bound themselves?

[inked]

Sure.

Genesis 2 and 3

God: Yo, Adam. It's all yours. Do not eat of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden.

...

Adam: I ate.

God: Therefore... .

The consequence of the disobedience was what you quote.

But,

O FELIX CULPA!

It wasn't left that way.

[Spock]

I've modified the title for this topic to reflect more accurately its continued evolution.

Theology is the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; while

Theological is the study of opinions concerning Theology.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

The belief that all religions or lack there-of lead to the same end is a belief without any evidence that I've ever seen. Have you ever seen any evidence to support this belief?

when i say "same end", i mean that you find people both you and me would consider "good" people in both their personal actions and morality that come from vastly different theological backgrounds, or no theological backgrounds at all

basically, good people can come from any background

sure, if your interpretation of christianity is right, these seemingly good people may die and go to hell, but that is beyond anyone's ability to change

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I find it amazing that after World War 2, you can have faith in humanity. We're madly self-serving creatures. Self is the God of much of modern society, and it will be its bane.

i'm a student of history... and i think that if you look at the entirety of human history, we are better off as a whole today than we were 2000 years ago, or even 50 years ago... far from perfect, but much more respecting of one another than we once were... and i can only hope that trend continues

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

What IS "personal salvation", IYO? And how are you so sure that it has more than one path to it? Is that a faith-based belief of yours?

the ability to live at peace with yourself and those around you... enjoying life as much as you can while allowing and even helping others to enjoy theirs... simple everyday stuff

i've met many people like that, and they hold a vast variety of faiths

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

(and my other question is still pending - what, you're busy at work or something? )

yeah, busy

what was the question?

[brownjenkins]

you must have meant this one...

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

No, I mean if you found enough conclusive evidence during your life here (say in the next year) to persuade you that Christianity was true, what would you do?

i guess you'd have to spell of this "evidence" for me

but, i probably wouldn't do anything different than i do now... i think i live a life that is pretty respectful of others from a moral point of view and that should be good enough for any "creator"

if this was not enough, and i was also expected to worship this creator (as some forms of christianity imply)... i don't think i would, even if i knew it would lead to eternal damnation... i could not be sincere in any such worship

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by inked

Sure.

Genesis 2 and 3

God: Yo, Adam. It's all yours. Do not eat of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden.

...

Adam: I ate.

God: Therefore... .

The consequence of the disobedience was what you quote.

That verse says, "God bound all men over to disobedience," not, "God punished all men for disobedience." "Bound" implies tying, or restraining, or constraining. It implies the use of force, anyway. Look it up in the dictionary. Bound them to do something. What? Disobedience. Oh well . I know we just disagree on this, so let's look at some of the other verses in the chapter I hope you'll give me explanations for. Don't worry; I won't take you through all the predestination verses in the Bible. Just the ones in this chapter.

Right below verse 32, verse 31 says, "so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you." This states very clearly that there is a divine purpose in their disobedience. I think. How would you interpret that?

Another verse from the same chapter. Verse 25: "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in." In other words, the hardening will continue until the number of Gentiles that God has in mind have come in, and then the hardening will stop. Coincidence? Not likely. The much more plausible interpretation is that God is in charge of their hardening, and will harden them until the number of Gentiles he has selected come in. Then, he will remove the hardness of heart.

Another verse, number 8. "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." God gave them. God blinded them. God deafened them. And the following verses talk about eternal judgment coming as punishment.

Another verse, number 25: "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in." This verse implies very strongly that God is in control of the amount of time that Israel will be hardened.

Verse 15: "For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world . . ." Their rejection is the reconciliation of the world? Verse 19 implies purpose in this. "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." It goes on to say that the branches were broken off because of unbelief, but that the new branches stand by faith. However, lack of faith is the reason the branches were broken off, while verse 19 clearly points out a purpose in their being broken off. The "because" and the "so that" have different meanings, and the word choices send different messages.

Then in the conclusion of the chapter, the glorious doxology, "For from him and through him and to him are all things." "From him . . . are all things."

Those are the predestination scriptures I can find from that chapter alone. There are lots, lots more. Consequence you mentioned, and consequence is a part of God's judgments and choices. However, God's choices go further back then that, they go deeper. He doesn't just give people the consequences. He chooses it all beforehand. And if someone persecutes me, this is God's will for me in Christ Jesus. "From him . . . are all things." All things, not, all things except A and B and C . . .

Well, I can find a lot more predestination scriptures than that. There are many, throughout the Bible. When I believed in free will, a few years ago now, I found myself swimming against the tide of scripture, because I thought at that time that predestination was an ugly concept. Now that I've thought free will through a bit better, I see that it actually seems the more ugly concept, and predestination the brighter one.

I'll understand if you don't have time to respond about all of these verses, though I'll also be a bit disappointed .




I'll respond to you soon, Brownjenkins. No time yet.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I don't think God intended to give Job a solution, or a cover-all-bases response. He didn't go and say, "people suffer because of sin." Job was innocent. He was extremely innocent, and yet he suffered in extreme ways as well. God's response could be termed evasive. He didn't give Job the direct answer Job wanted, but he gave Job the answer that he and all humanity needed. That answer was simply that we are in no position to talk back to God. If God's actions are meaningless to us and beyond our understanding, that does not mean that God has no good purpose or reason behind them.

I'm sure you see how problematic the answer is for a non-believer - it seems like he has no answer really, so he makes up a statement that could never be either proven or disproved. You can't really argue with, 'God has a reason, he just doesn't want to tell us'. To a non-believer, I think it would look like you have no answer, you avoid facing reality.

I'm sure he could have stopped the murders altogether. However, to say that he should have done something assumes that he had no good plan behind what happened. From our limited perspective, we can't make that judgment. We can fight against what evil we encounter, but we can't aren't in a position to judge God for evil's successes. We can't see all that he can, and thus aren't in a good position to judge those of his decisions that baffle us. We can only know what God reveals to us, though we also can guess or form our own ideas about other things, based on our knowledge of the nature of God and on logic.

That's no very persuading, IMO...

God had a very good reason to let the murder of millions. Or for others, the mere suffering for 6 years, which would live them marks and nightmeres to the rest of their lives. Sure.. we just don't know the reason. Say, if 'only' 3 millions have died - that would obviously do a permanent damage that will lead to the destruction of the world as we know it.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i have just finished the Religion module of my sociology a-level, and one point which interested me in my sociological study of religion was the story of lillith.

i may not be getting this right, but according to the bible, lillith was adam's 1st wife, and was created as his equal, but opposite number. she, as an equal, would not suffer to lie beneath him, and so god transformed her into a daemon, and then created eve from adam's rib, therefore making eve (womankind) lesser to adam (mankind).
can i get a christian view on this?
is it in the christian scriptures?
or is it a wholly jewish story?
and if RtB is about, is how i have written it right?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I'm sure you see how problematic the answer is for a non-believer - it seems like he has no answer really, so he makes up a statement that could never be either proven or disproved. You can't really argue with, 'God has a reason, he just doesn't want to tell us'. To a non-believer, I think it would look like you have no answer, you avoid facing reality.

"Reality?" And on what would one base the idea that there is no answer? All that one has to base that on is the fact that one does not know the answer oneself. It's saying, "If I don't know the answer, there is no answer." That sounds like me when I was younger, struggling with math . That hardly seems to be a voice of reality. It is opinion alone, with no reason or evidence behind it.

Christians know a good and pure God. Thus, they have good reason to believe that God has a good purpose in those occasions where human suffering appears to have no good reason. The "reality" you speak of, that we may be avoiding, is merely the lack of understanding that everyone else has. Like everyone else, we don't know all the answers to suffering. However, we do have very good reason to be optimistic.

I may be able to get you a better answer if I have some time to think about this again. It's been a while since I delved into it.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

i have just finished the Religion module of my sociology a-level, and one point which interested me in my sociological study of religion was the story of lillith.

i may not be getting this right, but according to the bible, lillith was adam's 1st wife, and was created as his equal, but opposite number. she, as an equal, would not suffer to lie beneath him, and so god transformed her into a daemon, and then created eve from adam's rib, therefore making eve (womankind) lesser to adam (mankind).
can i get a christian view on this?
is it in the christian scriptures?
or is it a wholly jewish story?
and if RtB is about, is how i have written it right?

I don't think Lilith is in the Bible.

[Nurvingiel]

If Lilith isn't in the Bible, where did she come from? Oral history? A legend?

(I believe you Lief, I'm just curious about her origins.)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

apparantly also, lillith now goes around and eats newborn babies...!