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#801 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Free will vs. predestination isn't an extremely important subject though, in my view. It has little relevance in how we live our lives or in what our relationships with God look like.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#802 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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#803 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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I disagree with a lot of your points, Lief.
Rad, would you please answer my 2 posts when you get some time? ![]()
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 01-24-2006 at 02:18 AM. |
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#804 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-24-2006 at 02:11 AM. |
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#805 | ||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
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They would suffer anyway, the question is - if after the suffering they would have the faith to continue believing, or not. Quote:
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#806 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Ah, Lief, the old Reformation errors............
![]() Humans have choice and what they do with those choices count. Cf. Adam and Eve, Christ in His humanity, etc, etc.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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#807 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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By the way, Inked or R*an, how would someone who believes in free will respond to that scripture? If some events are men's will rather than God's, how are these events "God's will for you in Christ Jesus"? Quote:
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In fact, the only way God could have evaded this dilemma of difference with people is if he brought humans to his level: omniscience. His ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts than our thoughts, according to scripture. He would have to reveal all of his thoughts and ways to us, if we were to understand them. If we don't understand any particular, we probably would choose something which God by nature wouldn't, because our ways are lower and our vision shorter. So we always would naturally be baffled by God's actions to some extent, unless he reveals his purposes to us. That is only natural for a higher being, and a problem of omniscience that we'll just have to endure, while we accept those revelations that come. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#808 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#809 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Sure.
Genesis 2 and 3 God: Yo, Adam. It's all yours. Do not eat of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden. ... Adam: I ate. God: Therefore... . The consequence of the disobedience was what you quote. ![]() But, O FELIX CULPA! It wasn't left that way. ![]()
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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#810 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
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I've modified the title for this topic to reflect more accurately its continued evolution.
Theology is the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; while Theological is the study of opinions concerning Theology.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 01-24-2006 at 01:46 PM. |
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#811 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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basically, good people can come from any background sure, if your interpretation of christianity is right, these seemingly good people may die and go to hell, but that is beyond anyone's ability to change Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#812 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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![]() i've met many people like that, and they hold a vast variety of faiths Quote:
![]() what was the question?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#813 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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you must have meant this one...
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but, i probably wouldn't do anything different than i do now... i think i live a life that is pretty respectful of others from a moral point of view and that should be good enough for any "creator" if this was not enough, and i was also expected to worship this creator (as some forms of christianity imply)... i don't think i would, even if i knew it would lead to eternal damnation... i could not be sincere in any such worship
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#814 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Predestination in Romans 11
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![]() Right below verse 32, verse 31 says, "so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you." This states very clearly that there is a divine purpose in their disobedience. I think. How would you interpret that? Another verse from the same chapter. Verse 25: "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in." In other words, the hardening will continue until the number of Gentiles that God has in mind have come in, and then the hardening will stop. Coincidence? Not likely. The much more plausible interpretation is that God is in charge of their hardening, and will harden them until the number of Gentiles he has selected come in. Then, he will remove the hardness of heart. Another verse, number 8. "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." God gave them. God blinded them. God deafened them. And the following verses talk about eternal judgment coming as punishment. Another verse, number 25: "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in." This verse implies very strongly that God is in control of the amount of time that Israel will be hardened. Verse 15: "For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world . . ." Their rejection is the reconciliation of the world? Verse 19 implies purpose in this. "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." It goes on to say that the branches were broken off because of unbelief, but that the new branches stand by faith. However, lack of faith is the reason the branches were broken off, while verse 19 clearly points out a purpose in their being broken off. The "because" and the "so that" have different meanings, and the word choices send different messages. Then in the conclusion of the chapter, the glorious doxology, "For from him and through him and to him are all things." "From him . . . are all things." Those are the predestination scriptures I can find from that chapter alone. There are lots, lots more. Consequence you mentioned, and consequence is a part of God's judgments and choices. However, God's choices go further back then that, they go deeper. He doesn't just give people the consequences. He chooses it all beforehand. And if someone persecutes me, this is God's will for me in Christ Jesus. "From him . . . are all things." All things, not, all things except A and B and C . . . Well, I can find a lot more predestination scriptures than that. There are many, throughout the Bible. When I believed in free will, a few years ago now, I found myself swimming against the tide of scripture, because I thought at that time that predestination was an ugly concept. Now that I've thought free will through a bit better, I see that it actually seems the more ugly concept, and predestination the brighter one. I'll understand if you don't have time to respond about all of these verses, though I'll also be a bit disappointed ![]() I'll respond to you soon, Brownjenkins. No time yet.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-24-2006 at 04:35 PM. |
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#815 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
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God had a very good reason to let the murder of millions. Or for others, the mere suffering for 6 years, which would live them marks and nightmeres to the rest of their lives. Sure.. we just don't know the reason. Say, if 'only' 3 millions have died - that would obviously do a permanent damage that will lead to the destruction of the world as we know it. |
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#816 |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
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i have just finished the Religion module of my sociology a-level, and one point which interested me in my sociological study of religion was the story of lillith.
i may not be getting this right, but according to the bible, lillith was adam's 1st wife, and was created as his equal, but opposite number. she, as an equal, would not suffer to lie beneath him, and so god transformed her into a daemon, and then created eve from adam's rib, therefore making eve (womankind) lesser to adam (mankind). can i get a christian view on this? is it in the christian scriptures? or is it a wholly jewish story? and if RtB is about, is how i have written it right? |
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#817 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Quote:
![]() Christians know a good and pure God. Thus, they have good reason to believe that God has a good purpose in those occasions where human suffering appears to have no good reason. The "reality" you speak of, that we may be avoiding, is merely the lack of understanding that everyone else has. Like everyone else, we don't know all the answers to suffering. However, we do have very good reason to be optimistic. I may be able to get you a better answer if I have some time to think about this again. It's been a while since I delved into it.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#818 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#819 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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If Lilith isn't in the Bible, where did she come from? Oral history? A legend?
(I believe you Lief, I'm just curious about her origins.)
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#820 |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
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apparantly also, lillith now goes around and eats newborn babies...!
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