Theology III

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Hindus aren't Christian, and don't believe they are. But you don't believe there are any Christian Universalists?

I would be willing to wager that Lief was talking about UUs.

[Azrael]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Some of them do. Gandhi once said, when asked what his religion was, "I am a Hindu, I am a Muslim, I am a Christian, I am a Sikh -- I follow the basic principles of all religions."

It depends what kind of Universalism we're talking about. If they deny the necessity of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, they are not Christian.

I agree with him on this Christians are those who believe in Jesus's sacrifice...if we didn't I think we would be Jewish right now....because thats all Christainity is (in a sense) jewish with a Messiah and Jesus is Him.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I would be willing to wager that Lief was talking about UUs.

Ah, probably so. Well, UU's come in all flavors. Some are Christian, some Pagan, some Buddhists...really all flavors.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Some of them do. Gandhi once said, when asked what his religion was, "I am a Hindu, I am a Muslim, I am a Christian, I am a Sikh -- I follow the basic principles of all religions."

I think you can take this as an individual statement. You wouldn't generalize it to say all Muslims were Christian, or all Christians were Muslim, so there's no reason to pair up two of the components.

He probably had a 'pastor" at home just shaking his head and saying, "Don't drag me into your 'invent your own theology', young man!"

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Ah, probably so. Well, UU's come in all flavors. Some are Christian, some Pagan, some Buddhists...really all flavors.

Well, the whole Unitarian thing kinda cuts down on the Christian thing...

[Azrael]

well i guess i did start up a good discussion...but question i know no one said this per say but how could some one say some Christians could be Muslim?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Re: Universalism. I don't believe it myself, I think it's rather flagrantly contrary to Scripture (calling Judas a son of perdition and all that), but I do have a great deal of respect for those who do. I very much see where they are coming from, and I do see that the problem of damnation is a very big one theologically (that its a big problem on a personal level goes without saying). The universalist opinion in the Christian tradition must be ceded a certain respect; if not because we have sympathy for someone struggling with this issue, then at least for the eminent men of the Church who have held to it; St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Ambrose of Milan (teacher, ironically, of St. Augustine of Hippo), St. Basil the Great, right up to George MacDonald, and doubtless great churchmen since his day, as well.

[Azrael]

I called my youth pastor and asked him about the topic and heres his reply.

They believe God is a loving God and loves everyone(true) they also believe that God made it to where everyone goes to Heaven weather they accept or not...or even know who Jesus is.

There was more, but this is what I came to. They want to make getting to Heaven even more easy then it is now. So they want God to do everything for them and put no effort into it...I honestly think this theroy could not hold up but I see it has and this puzzles me

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Well, the whole Unitarian thing kinda cuts down on the Christian thing...

The UUA (the Unitarian Universalist Association) is the largest collection of so called "Unitarian" churches, but it's a misnomer. UU churches who belong to this association agree to a set of principles which might be summed up as 'live and let live' from a theological standpoint. It merged in the 60's from two smaller organizations who were exploring 9as was common in that era) a number of ideas. There's no actual doctrinal adherence to 'Unitarian" in a Christian sense, and actual Unitarians are pretty scarce on the ground.

Originally Posted by Azrael

I called my youth pastor and asked him about the topic and heres his reply.

They believe God is a loving God and loves everyone(true) they also believe that God made it to where everyone goes to Heaven weather they accept or not...or even know who Jesus is.

There was more, but this is what I came to. They want to make getting to Heaven even more easy then it is now. So they want God to do everything for them and put no effort into it...I honestly think this theroy could not hold up but I see it has and this puzzles me

Well, I look at it this way. God didn't need your help or cooperation to make the world. He didn't ask you (personally) to sign off on being banished from the garden of Eden by Adam and Eve's transgression. If He wants you saved, why would you think you need a vote?

It's not so much that 'they want God to do all the work." It's more an acknowledgement that your salvation is in God's hands (thank goodness).

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Re: Universalism. I don't believe it myself, I think it's rather flagrantly contrary to Scripture (calling Judas a son of perdition and all that), but I do have a great deal of respect for those who do. I very much see where they are coming from, and I do see that the problem of damnation is a very big one theologically (that its a big problem on a personal level goes without saying). The universalist opinion in the Christian tradition must be ceded a certain respect; if not because we have sympathy for someone struggling with this issue, then at least for the eminent men of the Church who have held to it; St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Ambrose of Milan (teacher, ironically, of St. Augustine of Hippo), St. Basil the Great, right up to George MacDonald, and doubtless great churchmen since his day, as well.

Indeed. There was actually one "Fool for Christ" in history (or many more, perhaps that I'm passing over) who went around saying that even once souls were in hell, Christ would come to save them too.

Now don't get your hopes up, any of you. This doesn't let you off the hook by any means.

I wouldn't know what to make of that, and it's a more than a bit presumptive to expound upon in any case.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Well, I look at it this way. God didn't need your help or cooperation to make the world.

Every human on Earth is involved in either creating or destroying the world (or both). Their lives on Earth are part of the creation process.

Little Lord Fauntleroy's mother put how it should work pretty neatly. She said, "The world should always be a little better because a man has lived."

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

He didn't ask you (personally) to sign off on being banished from the garden of Eden by Adam and Eve's transgression.

All humanity sinned with Adam and Eve, so this is our responsibility as well as theirs. People die for their own sins. Original sin may have entered humanity with Adam and Eve, but we all sin of our own wills.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

If He wants you saved, why would you think you need a vote?

These things can all be looked at from two perspectives. There's the bigger scale scheme of salvation from a historical standpoint, and there's the smaller scale scheme of salvation from an individual standpoint. From the bigger perspective, we can say that God created, that Adam and Eve sinned, and that Christ saved. That's a big picture perspective. From a personal, smaller picture perspective that is just as valid and true as the big picture, we can say that we create the world (partly ), that we personally have sinned of our own choice in our lives, and that Christ saves us if we personally open our hearts to him. The whole story exists for each person personally, and it also exists for humanity as a whole. You've pointed out key elements of the big picture. The small picture exists within the big picture though and is a microcosm of it occurring in countless human lives, within the bigger story.

It's pretty ridiculous when people try to squirm out of their own sinfulness by pointing the finger at Adam and Eve. That's actually exactly the same thing as Adam and Eve did in the Garden. "This woman did it!" > "That snake did it!" > "Hee hee, yes, I did it ." At least he didn't care to try casting the blame further . Now we turn around and say < "Adam and Eve did it!"

Humans . We're all the same .

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

It's not so much that 'they want God to do all the work." It's more an acknowledgement that your salvation is in God's hands (thank goodness).

It is in God's hands, and he offers it to us if we will accept it. This comes down to the issue of what salvation means. In Catholic theology (according to the Catechism), Heaven is unity with Christ. God is Love, so every time we are loving, we are uniting ourselves with his will, but every time we are unloving, we separate ourselves from his will and thus separate ourselves from God. God's grace and salvation mean that it becomes possible for us to become wholly unified with his will. Wholly loving. We become love just as God is Love. He can purge us of all sin. However, we have to want to be rid of our sin, because he won't destroy our identities by destroying our Free Will.

So there's a necessary unity between God's will and our wills that occurs in salvation. We can't expect God to unify us when we repeatedly reject his offered unity. He respects us too much to destroy our Free Wills in order to bring us to himself. Without Free Will there are no identities. Only robots. Maybe happy robots, but still only robots .

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Universalism isn't in contra-indication to free will. It's just a bet on the outcome.

And your theory that each human has the choice or not to participate in Sin is not supported by Catholic teaching.

This "we are all creators and destroyers" business is closer to Shaivism than any Christian doctrine with which I'm familier.

Interesting collection.

[Azrael]

That was the most deep thing i've ever read...and i think i only understood half. Where did you learn all this? I've only started in February to understand Theology, when i went to Dare 2 Share and gave my life completely to God (before then i had been the type that follows God's word but not knowing why...I believed in Jesus's gift, but I did not understand God's word) so I do not understand much still but I came to this forum to learn more.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I trust you'll look around, in addition to this forum.

[Azrael]

I think hes right on the matter "we choose to sin" almost everytime I'm about to comment a sin I hear a voice telling me to stop and sometimes i listen but sometimes I don't...thats choice to sin.

I also agree with we are creators and destroyers on a certain level. Sure we have no control on God's plan, but our actions can further it and can halt someone to entering God's plan. If you see a homeless person on the street and take him to lunch(or her) and do kind things out of the goodness of your heart, you are revealing God's love to them. If you show hatred to someone and treat them like crap...and they know your Christian their going to think "God is evil and unloving." sure we can't control God, but we can choose to further or halt the kingdom
(not sure if this makes since)

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Universalism isn't in contra-indication to free will. It's just a bet on the outcome.

That assertion doesn't respond to the logic of my argument. If people willfully separate themselves from God, he couldn't unite them to himself without breaking their wills.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

And your theory that each human has the choice or not to participate in Sin is not supported by Catholic teaching.

That is incorrect. We are participants in the sins of Adam and Eve, but we also are each responsible for our sins. That is Catholic teaching.

Catechism 1873 The root of all sins lies in man's heart.

It says in man's heart, not in Adam or Eve's heart.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

This "we are all creators and destroyers" business is closer to Shaivism than any Christian doctrine with which I'm familier.

I don't know enough about Shaivism to comment on any similarity, but I know that the teaching that humans become co-creators with God is Catholic.

Here's one reference to it, talking about how marriage partners create a child with God, becoming co-creators in bringing life into the world.
http://www.catholicculture.org/libra...fm?recnum=5274

I think there's a scripture referring to us directly as co-creators with God as well. Don't feel like digging for it right now.

I heard this elsewhere as well . . . Gwaimir can back me up, anyway. I'm sure he knows of another citation for it.

It's obvious through human reason, also. Anyone who builds a house or nourishes a child so that the child can grow up in the world is helping to create the world. Anyone who plants flowers, trees, grass or bushes is creating the world. A farmer who plants wheat and carefully takes care of it is creating. Someone who gives a kind word to someone else in life to build up the person's character or self-esteem is creating the world.

Someone who attacks a person viciously is destroying the world (or a little part of it). Someone who destroys a house or a tree is destroying, perhaps in order to create something else.

It's going on all over the place. We all have a creative role in the world that cooperates with God's creative will and power.

It's so beautiful and special how that works .

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Azrael

That was the most deep thing i've ever read...and i think i only understood half. Where did you learn all this? I've only started in February to understand Theology, when i went to Dare 2 Share and gave my life completely to God (before then i had been the type that follows God's word but not knowing why...I believed in Jesus's gift, but I did not understand God's word) so I do not understand much still but I came to this forum to learn more.

Azrael, if you want to get into theology things like Dare 2 Share are a good place to start. But if you want to know the things Lief does you're going to have to take it another few steps .


Check out the Catechism (not the watered down version--the real one), and go look up the names of a few theologians. I especially suggest St. Thomas Aquinas and have read a number of his works. I also suggest checking out biographies of saints (St. Theresa "The Little Flower" is a good saint to start with IMO), and going to the Vatican's website to check out sermons and things like that.

It's wonderful to be able to communicate theology in a language that your average kid can understand, but it's like dumbing things down. You need to start with the dumbed down stuff some times but you have to graduate to a higher understanding at some point if you're truly interested in sharing your knowledge.


You can be a perfectly wonderful and charming person without knowing a drop of theology. And maybe you really don't need to have more than a minimal understanding of it to live happily. But I personally have felt for a long time a great need to understand and be able to figure out WHY people say the things they say about religion, and studying some serious theology is a good place to start.

Of course the caveat stands that sometimes you wish you really didn't know these things .



But seriously, if you're interested in having a deep knowledge of Christianity/Catholicism/Any other religion, there are a million texts out there that you can dive into and it will give you a much better understanding of how things work.



Then if you want to start getting a grasp on where all of THAT got its roots, start checking out Greek and Roman history/mythology. It's quite fascinating when you start to see even the surface similarities and junctions to see how things all link up.


I'm sticking this here instead of in a PM in case anyone else had suggestions they'd like to make. Or if they disagree with me. That's fine too .

[Azrael]

Thanks

[Curufin]

And the thread is all about Christianity, again...*dramatic sigh*

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Azrael

I think hes right on the matter "we choose to sin" almost everytime I'm about to comment a sin I hear a voice telling me to stop and sometimes i listen but sometimes I don't...thats choice to sin.

I also agree with we are creators and destroyers on a certain level. Sure we have no control on God's plan, but our actions can further it and can halt someone to entering God's plan. If you see a homeless person on the street and take him to lunch(or her) and do kind things out of the goodness of your heart, you are revealing God's love to them. If you show hatred to someone and treat them like crap...and they know your Christian their going to think "God is evil and unloving." sure we can't control God, but we can choose to further or halt the kingdom
(not sure if this makes since)

I think that's an excellent way of looking at it. Very accurate, IMO.

Originally Posted by Curufin

And the thread is all about Christianity, again...*dramatic sigh*

If you want to share your pagan beliefs, we'd be happy to roar over them .

[Curufin]

If you want to share your pagan beliefs, we'd be happy to roar over them

My beliefs aren't exactly pagan. Or, they are, just not weird Wicca-neo-trendy pagan. And they have elements of many things mixed in.

I just find it interesting that most of the 41 pages of this thread concern Christianity, as if it is the only religion on the planet.