06-27-2008, 07:25 PM | #801 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I would be willing to wager that Lief was talking about UUs.
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06-27-2008, 07:28 PM | #802 | |
Elven Warrior
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- |
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06-27-2008, 07:38 PM | #803 | ||
Elf Lord
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He probably had a 'pastor" at home just shaking his head and saying, "Don't drag me into your 'invent your own theology', young man!"
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-27-2008, 07:40 PM | #804 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Well, the whole Unitarian thing kinda cuts down on the Christian thing...
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
06-27-2008, 07:47 PM | #805 |
Elven Warrior
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well i guess i did start up a good discussion...but question i know no one said this per say but how could some one say some Christians could be Muslim?
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- |
06-27-2008, 07:51 PM | #806 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Re: Universalism. I don't believe it myself, I think it's rather flagrantly contrary to Scripture (calling Judas a son of perdition and all that), but I do have a great deal of respect for those who do. I very much see where they are coming from, and I do see that the problem of damnation is a very big one theologically (that its a big problem on a personal level goes without saying). The universalist opinion in the Christian tradition must be ceded a certain respect; if not because we have sympathy for someone struggling with this issue, then at least for the eminent men of the Church who have held to it; St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Ambrose of Milan (teacher, ironically, of St. Augustine of Hippo), St. Basil the Great, right up to George MacDonald, and doubtless great churchmen since his day, as well.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
06-27-2008, 08:31 PM | #807 |
Elven Warrior
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I called my youth pastor and asked him about the topic and heres his reply.
They believe God is a loving God and loves everyone(true) they also believe that God made it to where everyone goes to Heaven weather they accept or not...or even know who Jesus is. There was more, but this is what I came to. They want to make getting to Heaven even more easy then it is now. So they want God to do everything for them and put no effort into it...I honestly think this theroy could not hold up but I see it has and this puzzles me
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- |
06-27-2008, 08:52 PM | #808 | ||
Elf Lord
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It's not so much that 'they want God to do all the work." It's more an acknowledgement that your salvation is in God's hands (thank goodness).
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-27-2008, 09:16 PM | #809 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Now don't get your hopes up, any of you. This doesn't let you off the hook by any means. I wouldn't know what to make of that, and it's a more than a bit presumptive to expound upon in any case.
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06-27-2008, 09:30 PM | #810 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Little Lord Fauntleroy's mother put how it should work pretty neatly. She said, "The world should always be a little better because a man has lived." Quote:
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It's pretty ridiculous when people try to squirm out of their own sinfulness by pointing the finger at Adam and Eve. That's actually exactly the same thing as Adam and Eve did in the Garden. "This woman did it!" > "That snake did it!" > "Hee hee, yes, I did it ." At least he didn't care to try casting the blame further . Now we turn around and say < "Adam and Eve did it!" Humans . We're all the same . Quote:
So there's a necessary unity between God's will and our wills that occurs in salvation. We can't expect God to unify us when we repeatedly reject his offered unity. He respects us too much to destroy our Free Wills in order to bring us to himself. Without Free Will there are no identities. Only robots. Maybe happy robots, but still only robots .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-27-2008 at 09:37 PM. |
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06-27-2008, 10:01 PM | #811 |
Elf Lord
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Universalism isn't in contra-indication to free will. It's just a bet on the outcome.
And your theory that each human has the choice or not to participate in Sin is not supported by Catholic teaching. This "we are all creators and destroyers" business is closer to Shaivism than any Christian doctrine with which I'm familier. Interesting collection.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-27-2008, 10:05 PM | #812 |
Elven Warrior
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That was the most deep thing i've ever read...and i think i only understood half. Where did you learn all this? I've only started in February to understand Theology, when i went to Dare 2 Share and gave my life completely to God (before then i had been the type that follows God's word but not knowing why...I believed in Jesus's gift, but I did not understand God's word) so I do not understand much still but I came to this forum to learn more.
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- |
06-27-2008, 10:08 PM | #813 |
Elf Lord
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I trust you'll look around, in addition to this forum.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-27-2008, 10:11 PM | #814 |
Elven Warrior
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I think hes right on the matter "we choose to sin" almost everytime I'm about to comment a sin I hear a voice telling me to stop and sometimes i listen but sometimes I don't...thats choice to sin.
I also agree with we are creators and destroyers on a certain level. Sure we have no control on God's plan, but our actions can further it and can halt someone to entering God's plan. If you see a homeless person on the street and take him to lunch(or her) and do kind things out of the goodness of your heart, you are revealing God's love to them. If you show hatred to someone and treat them like crap...and they know your Christian their going to think "God is evil and unloving." sure we can't control God, but we can choose to further or halt the kingdom (not sure if this makes since)
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- |
06-27-2008, 10:19 PM | #815 | |||
Elf Lord
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Catechism 1873 The root of all sins lies in man's heart. It says in man's heart, not in Adam or Eve's heart. Quote:
Here's one reference to it, talking about how marriage partners create a child with God, becoming co-creators in bringing life into the world. http://www.catholicculture.org/libra...fm?recnum=5274 I think there's a scripture referring to us directly as co-creators with God as well. Don't feel like digging for it right now. I heard this elsewhere as well . . . Gwaimir can back me up, anyway. I'm sure he knows of another citation for it. It's obvious through human reason, also. Anyone who builds a house or nourishes a child so that the child can grow up in the world is helping to create the world. Anyone who plants flowers, trees, grass or bushes is creating the world. A farmer who plants wheat and carefully takes care of it is creating. Someone who gives a kind word to someone else in life to build up the person's character or self-esteem is creating the world. Someone who attacks a person viciously is destroying the world (or a little part of it). Someone who destroys a house or a tree is destroying, perhaps in order to create something else. It's going on all over the place. We all have a creative role in the world that cooperates with God's creative will and power. It's so beautiful and special how that works .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-28-2008 at 12:56 AM. |
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06-27-2008, 10:46 PM | #816 | |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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Azrael, if you want to get into theology things like Dare 2 Share are a good place to start. But if you want to know the things Lief does you're going to have to take it another few steps . Check out the Catechism (not the watered down version--the real one), and go look up the names of a few theologians. I especially suggest St. Thomas Aquinas and have read a number of his works. I also suggest checking out biographies of saints (St. Theresa "The Little Flower" is a good saint to start with IMO), and going to the Vatican's website to check out sermons and things like that. It's wonderful to be able to communicate theology in a language that your average kid can understand, but it's like dumbing things down. You need to start with the dumbed down stuff some times but you have to graduate to a higher understanding at some point if you're truly interested in sharing your knowledge. You can be a perfectly wonderful and charming person without knowing a drop of theology. And maybe you really don't need to have more than a minimal understanding of it to live happily. But I personally have felt for a long time a great need to understand and be able to figure out WHY people say the things they say about religion, and studying some serious theology is a good place to start. Of course the caveat stands that sometimes you wish you really didn't know these things . But seriously, if you're interested in having a deep knowledge of Christianity/Catholicism/Any other religion, there are a million texts out there that you can dive into and it will give you a much better understanding of how things work. Then if you want to start getting a grasp on where all of THAT got its roots, start checking out Greek and Roman history/mythology. It's quite fascinating when you start to see even the surface similarities and junctions to see how things all link up. I'm sticking this here instead of in a PM in case anyone else had suggestions they'd like to make. Or if they disagree with me. That's fine too . Last edited by Tessar : 06-27-2008 at 10:50 PM. |
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06-27-2008, 10:53 PM | #817 |
Elven Warrior
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Thanks
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- |
06-28-2008, 01:09 AM | #818 |
The Ñoldóran
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And the thread is all about Christianity, again...*dramatic sigh*
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06-28-2008, 01:26 AM | #819 | ||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-28-2008 at 01:27 AM. |
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06-28-2008, 01:37 AM | #820 | |
The Ñoldóran
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I just find it interesting that most of the 41 pages of this thread concern Christianity, as if it is the only religion on the planet.
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