Abortion.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

St. John the Baptist also strongly condemned them.

Mark the calendar, I never thought I'd see a non-religious fellow cautioning against the condemnation of Pharisaical types...

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I never said you were false; if you will note, I was responding to your reference to "my casual and true statement!", quoted directly before the text you just quoted. It was your statement I called false, not you. I would never say that a person is herself false.



I take this confused sentence to be chiding me for not saying that everything I do is Christian. Apparently, anything I say or do must be Christian, by virtue of the fact that I say or do it. I suppose that means my laptop I am posting from must be Christian as well, and the jeans I am wearing, and the glasses attempting to correct my near-sightedness. My hookah must in fact be a Christian hookah. But no. It is only if there is something specifically Christian about the thing itself that it is Christian; it's source has no bearing whatsoever on it.



Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, my dear. Try reading up on a religion before you assume to tell the followers what they believe, next time.



You got 'N'est ce pas' right. That is not so. In the first place, as I said above, a thing must be its nature be Christian to be so; having come from a Christian does not make it so. In the second place, as much as some of them try to hide or ignore that fact, Christians are not perfect.

Those points having been cleared up, I won't respond to the rest, as it is only more of what I responded to before; just a lot of condescending fluff, with no substance to it.

Oh - Aaaaand, what, exactly, does all this have to do with a thread discussion on the topic of Abortion? Just cirious, 'cause I still see nothing here, Gwaimir Windgem, from your posts ( and your homies' posts) of the last two - wait, 3 days? that has anything to do with abortion, yet everything to do with how much you're freaked out by me and the way I post. Hah! Well anyway...


Ah! And another thing I thought worth POINTING OUT to you, Gwaimir Windgem; you telling me to " Try reading up on a religion before you assume to tell the followers what they believe, next time," is an incredibly ironic joke, as I was raised and taught in several different christian schools, since the age of three until the age of seventeen, as catholic, as fundamentalist reformed presbyterian, as presbyterian, as seventh-day adventist, and as lutheran. I taught mySELF how to read, using the King James version of the bible.It was the first book I ever read - I was four years old. Don't believe me? I'd love to have my mother come on to this message-board to corroborate this fact. I have had extreme religion of the christian variety shoved and cajoled and manipulated and eased and forced down my throat for the entirety of my childhood, so don't sass me, kiddo. If anyone knows christ, Lotesse does. Just thought you might like to be aware of this fact.

Originally Posted by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane

Please don't drag me into the 'huff and guff' argument.

Oh, babe - there is no huff and guff argument; it's just that someone around here got all hot 'n bothered when I responded to your intro post in this thread by applauding your input, and offering friendly advice to be prepared for an abundance of "christian fundamentalist right wing republican" huff "n guff, which is precisely what absolutely proliferates and is present at Entmoot in spades. There was never any offense intended in the first place, how's it offenssive to point out the obvious? I'd be proud to have myself pointed out by my opposing camp as who I affliliate myself with, and if it'd been me, I'd have said, "Yezzir! That's right! Prepare thyself for some serious huff and hard-core guff, sah!" Because I wouldn't be ashamed to be identified as part of a group that I loved, identified with, agreed with and was loyal to. Apparantly, some kids around here are afraid to stand up for their identifying group, their religion, their political party. Ah, well. Courage and originality is extremely rare; whadda ya gonna do, ey?

Originally Posted by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane

I was just trying to say that some women (and men) should learn from their mistakes and not need abortion 5 or 6 times in a few months time. That isn't healthy

Oh, man I so agree with you on this.

Originally Posted by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane

I stated earlier that I disagree with abortion, but refuse to push my beliefs on others, and that's because the point of any form of Christianity is not to bully. It is, rather, to spread the word of God and allow that person the choice to come to him...not pealt someone with religious curses and damn them. That is why refuse to be more vehement about my point of view.

You have my absolute, utmost respect, Snowbane. You rock; this is so rare amonst Western Christians nowadays. I absolutely respect you, and look forward to getting to know you furthur, perhaps in these threads. Very, very cool...

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I seem to remember him esposing the idea of leaving judgement up to god.

He also said that he himself did not judge anyone. Hence he didn't think that condemning the actions of the Pharisees was judging the people, and hence condemning the actions of people who are doing wrong things is not judging people. Jesus was saying that people should not judge other people, and not even he judged other people. But he did judge actions.

For example, he very frequently in the scripture told people to leave their lives of sin. And yet he said that he himself did not judge. Thus he gave a command and applied it to himself as well, and when he said do not judge, he meant do not judge people. That is why even from the cross, he forgave those who were torturing him to death. That was a refusal to judge people, though he frequently judged the morality of actions.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

If anyone knows christ, Lotesse does. Just thought you might like to be aware of this fact.

Lotesse, let's say we're talking about two different humans. Do you think there is a difference between knowing a person and knowing about a person?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Since we are so far off-topic, Lotesse, I won't respond to most of what you said, but I will just say:

Because I wouldn't be ashamed to be identified as part of a group that I loved, identified with, agreed with and was loyal to. Apparantly, some kids around here are afraid to stand up for their identifying group, their religion, their political party.

I neither love, identify with, agree with, nor am loyal to the Republican party. I explicitly told you before that I am not a Republican, so why do you say that I am. As 'some kids' clearly refers to me, as I am the one who called you on your words, you have absolutely no right to accuse me of being afraid to stand up for my political party, since it is not my political party. I was raised Republican, but I ain't any more. In fact, I have no political party, though my ideals lean somewhat towards the Democratic party.

And as far as being afraid to stand up for my religion, you have no idea. That is one of my strong suits, and I do not fail to do so, as anyone on this board with the slightest modicum of impartiality can tell you. It is absurd to level such a charge against me. I will never fail to do so, I can tell you right here.

And with that, O mods, I am finished with this off-topic excursion.

<insert more triumphalist caricatures from Lotesse, and this should be finished>

[Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane]

I am proud of my point of views, I do stick with them and do like it when I am identified with them. However, I don't like being pulled into a fight.

Lief Erikson, I do want to save others lives. I don't like the idea of abortion. I do believe that it is killing another person, tiny though they be. What I was saying, and what isn't I realize wasn't very obvious, is that I won't stand outside an abortion clinic and yell and threaten sobbing, terrified women. Not all of them are sobbing or terrified, that is just a generalization from videos and pictures that I've seen.

Even though I say that I try not to bully (no one's perfect...don't yell at me later if I do end up bullying) my friends and those I talk with on the subject do know how I feel and what I believe. Even my friend who had an unwanted pregnancy knew how I felt about what she did.

Also, Lief Erikson, I do want to save those babies that are aborted...but that want to save lives also extends to the mothers. Both their mortal life and immortal life. (Wow...that sounded very...pompous of me.)

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Do you think there is a difference between knowing a person and knowing about a person?

Heck, the demons know Christ; is that something to brag about?

Anyway, Snowmane, I don't want to drag you into a fight; heck, it wasn't a fight at ALL until very recently, when some off-topic name-calling was started on the 23rd , but hopefully that's over now. I do want to hear your thoughts and question you about them, though. If that feels like being in a fight to you, though, then you don't have to answer

I agree with you that yelling and terrifying women outside of an abortion clinic is wrong. My friend works at a community pregnancy center and it's all about telling women about resources and things that they usually don't know are available. It's about supporting them and giving them more information with which to make their own choice.

Originally Posted by Snowmane

... because the point of any form of Christianity is ... not [to] pealt someone with religious curses and damn them.

Well, I certainly agree with you there!!!

As far as pushing your beliefs on others, well, if you vote, you'll be doing just that, along with everyone else. And everyone's voice should be heard, IMO. And I think thoughtful, courteous discussion threads are a great thing, so we can hear more thoughts and beliefs and think about them. Ones like this get kinda lively, but usually are not at ALL fights. The vast majority of people here don't fight.

[Lief Erikson]

Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane, I agree with everything in your post responding to mine.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Heck, the demons know Christ; is that something to brag about?

Good point.

[Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane]

I know that being asked questions then answering them isn't a fight. But, things were getting a bit...tense earlier and it seemed like I popped up in the middle of it. I just don't like loud conflicts. Even though this is text, the words yell inside my head. (Great, now you all think I'm a nutter who hears yelling voices).


As far as voting goes, I'm only 17. I will be able to vote during the next presidential election however! I can't wait for that. When I do vote in that election (assuming that nothing happens that will keep me from voting) I will be one of the few members of my family to acctually have a political point of view! Huzzah!


Back to abortion.
I have a different question. How safe or physically sound is an abortion procedure? I have no idea how it's done or any kind of follow-up for the mom, but I think the legality of abortion should also be affected by just how safe it is.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane

I know that being asked questions then answering them isn't a fight. But, things were getting a bit...tense earlier and it seemed like I popped up in the middle of it. I just don't like loud conflicts.

Me neither!!!!

Even though this is text, the words yell inside my head.

I know what you mean ...

Back to abortion.
I have a different question. How safe or physically sound is an abortion procedure? I have no idea how it's done or any kind of follow-up for the mom, but I think the legality of abortion should also be affected by just how safe it is.

We'll see if we can get our ob/gyn Mooter to chip in on that.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane

I'm not trying to go against anyone's beliefs or make anyone angry, this is simply how I feel.

I think that abortions will happen anyway, so why not make it safe? Also, why not make that baby's life stand for something? You've heard of stem cell research? Well, use abortion babies.
I don't like abortion, I don't think that I could do it...I don't think that women should resort to it, then again, I'm not in their postion and I refuse to condemn something I don't understand.
On the same note, if it is made legal it shouldn't be abused...and by that I mean that it shouldn't be used as a form of birth control. I think that parents or legal gaurdians of underage children should be informed of an abortion, before it takes place and that the parents/guardians should be part of the process.

Then again, that's just what I think...with American views on the subject.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Very cool; excellent post. You've got my vote. You're gonna get all kinds of christian fundie republican huff and guff soon in this thread, but that's the way it is in real life anyway, isn't it? You've got some allies here so don't get too discouraged when they start flogging you for your stance. It's awesome to see you here. Welcome back, Snowmane.

This is the post which Lotesse made, which, mysteriously and inexplicably, caused Gwaimir Windgem, a single person who posts in this large message-board, to decide it was aimed directly at him, and him alone. He decides that Lotesse is calling him a republican - and that this is somehow pejorative. He decides that Lotesse is specifically calling him a christian, and/or a fundie, and that this, too, is pejorative. He decides that the term "huff and guff" is pejorative, and refers to himself. Based upon all of these self-manufactured assumptions, he decides to attack Lotesse. One wonders why Gwaimir Windgem chose to pick a fight with Lotesse, when Lotesse, from the beginning, clearly displayed no malice, no intent to injure, no untowardness at all, when she made her friendly, positive welcome-back post to Master's Bane Swift Snowmane.

Lotesse feels it is hilarious, and very telling, that a certain moral majority extant within this message-board seems to go out of their collective way to search, and peck and grasp at anything, anything that they can find or trump up or spin to discredit her, or gang up on her, since she obviously possesses a frank and open mind, and is fearless and truthful about what she believes and who she is. Lotesse would like to point out, as well, that yes, she did "know christ" for a time, not just "know of him," and she and christ got in a fight and now they no longer hang out. Having been a non-christian for as long as she has been, (at least 15 years now,) she sees more, and more, and more the gang mentality and destructive bully aspect of the American Christian Moralists who despise and fear and strive to legislate against those who do not think and believe as they do. If you will all note, this knee-jerk reactionism and panicky disdain has been vividly and extensively demonstrated in this thread against Lotesse over the last four days, from the very group of people she noted in the above post might be inclined to offer huff and, yes, guff. They certainly obliged, didn't they?

So, Cast the first stone, ye who is without sin. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Be not afraid to entertain strangers, for therefore some have entertained angels unawares. Pride cometh before the fall. Oh, and this:

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Do everything without complaint or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe.

Philippians 2:3, 4 & 2:14, 15

Or whatever. But next time, Gwaimir Windgem, it might be advisable to refrain yourself from jumping to wild and personal conclusions when there was nothing whatsoever negative directed either at you, specifically, or at any other person or group you may identify yourself with. When i said be aware of christian fundie republican huff and guff, I meant exactly what I said, but in no way, shape or form was my statement intended to be an insult. Or a praise, for that matter. It was merely a statement of friendly fact, nothing more.



And with that, I'm out. I have no desire nor compulsion to argue my stance on abortion with you gentle folk here; I dislike these sorts of online endless fruitless unsatisfying and in the end, pointless arguments for or against a so-called "hot topic," especially when religion is involved. Ciao, kids, and have fun!

Oh - a parting caveat: Just keep on your toes for those crazy democrat, independent-party, liberal, atheist agnostic wingnuts out there; they're sure to give you an erratic dose of the ol' huff and guff now and again, and this is how it should be. There'd be no huff nor guff if no one had the moxie to make a stand for what they believed in, now would there? So party on, kids! Ciao -

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane

Back to abortion.
I have a different question. How safe or physically sound is an abortion procedure? I have no idea how it's done or any kind of follow-up for the mom, but I think the legality of abortion should also be affected by just how safe it is.

I think the Mooter ob/gyn once said that early term abortions are actually safer than carrying a baby to full-term and delivering.

But I don't think safety/easiness of something determines whether or not it's right or not, and I bet everyone here agrees - that's why we all love LOTR! (go Frodo!)


(and I don't think you're saying that it's the ONLY determining factor, Snowmane. I think that society SHOULD have a say about a publically available procedure if it has some safety concerns - that's kinda what you're saying, isn't it? Please correct me if I'm wrong!)

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Lotesse feels it is hilarious, and very telling, that a certain moral majority extant within this message-board seems to go out of their collective way to search, and peck and grasp at anything, anything that they can find or trump up or spin to discredit her, or gang up on her, since she obviously possesses a frank and open mind, and is fearless and truthful about what she believes and who she is. Lotesse would like to point out, as well, that yes, she did "know christ" for a time, not just "know of him," and she and christ got in a fight and now they no longer hang out.

Thanks for answering my question . I'm sorry if I offended at all by asking it- it was a blunder on my part, if so.

See you around the message board!

~Lief

[Lotesse]

Lief!! You silly goose, that's like the third or fourth time already since you posted your reply - what - eight minutes ago? that you've edited yourself! Why do you keep changing it? There's no need to keep changing it; it was fine the first time! So silly pajamas... And another thing, surely you know me well enough by now after two some-ought years to know I don't get offended? (A lot of people get offended by me & my character and voice, but it very rarely occurs the other way around) It's very difficult to offend or embarrass the ol' Owl! And in no way shape or form did you come close to offending me, babe, so don't trip potato chip. It's all good in the hood... Yes, see you around Entmoot, Lief, ciao for now! - :

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Oh, Hector isn't acting superior, silly goose! Don't you know by now he is superior?

Well it's about time someone admitted that, that's all I have to say.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Snowmane

As far as voting goes, I'm only 17. I will be able to vote during the next presidential election however! I can't wait for that. When I do vote in that election (assuming that nothing happens that will keep me from voting) I will be one of the few members of my family to acctually have a political point of view! Huzzah!

I think I'm the only one in my family who doesn't have a political point of view. I need to find me a political party...

Originally Posted by Lotesse

This is the post which Lotesse made, which, mysteriously and inexplicably...

Did I call it, or what!

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I think I'm the only one in my family who doesn't have a political point of view. I need to find me a political party...

Try Libertarian..they lean more democrat-ish on foreign policy, but uphold indivual independence a lot more than either the Dems or Reps.

[klatukatt]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Try Libertarian..they lean more democrat-ish on foreign policy, but uphold indivual independence a lot more than either the Dems or Reps.

Ooh, the one Libertarian that came to my school scared the crap out of me. She was talking about closing our borders to everything except trade and tourism. No forgin aid, but no war either.

SO, ABORTION... THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD...

I am in favor of it.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by klatukatt

Ooh, the one Libertarian that came to my school scared the crap out of me. She was talking about closing our borders to everything except trade and tourism. No forgin aid, but no war either.

You should hear Neal Boortz...

SO, ABORTION... THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD...

I am in favor of it.

Elaboratus tu?

[klatukatt]

Um... kay.

Women's rights, too many kids in this world already, please adopt.

I'm more in favor of not getting pregnant in the first place.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by klatukatt

I'm more in favor of not getting pregnant in the first place.

So am I, which is why I support the Abstinence groups...