Bush addresses the world- Pending War

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
But the majority of Americans support the government's actions. It makes no sense to hate the government who takes the action, and to not hate the people who whole-heartedly support it, in my opinion.

How can a government mirror the entirety (is that a word? I hope it is) of its people's culture and society? Governments change more fluently than culture and societies. To put the people of a nation on equal level as its government it to diminish the people IMO.

Even if the majority of the people support their government it does not mean that they are the same thing. Of course their are connections between a government and its people (it would be a shame if there weren't) but that still doesn't mean they are inseparable. Outsiders can disagree with the government of another country - even hate it if you prefer such radical terms- they can also disagree with the deciscions of the people to choose and support this particular government. But that doesn't mean they hate those people.

[Hasty Ent]

The majority is not the entirety. The most recent census figure I could find (www.census.gov) shows the current population of the United States at 290,694,086. If 70% were in favor, then 30% were not. And 30% of over 290 million people is a large number of Americans, in my book.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
But the majority of Americans support the government's actions. It makes no sense to hate the government who takes the action, and to not hate the people who whole-heartedly support it, in my opinion.

*shrugs* if that is the way you see it.

I see people as being much more than just their political beliefs.....but if you are going to tar people then I suppose a political brush will do just as well as any other

"other countries" being French smugglers. Don't forget how many nations joined the coalition.

So now the French are all smugglers.......I think the Americans are much more prone to racist remarks than most other countries..I've seen a plethora of derogatory cartoons aimed at countries that disagree with presidential policy......*shrugs* .... I'm glad I don't live there, that's all I can say.

Anyhoo............It seems that this war is pretty much done and dusted.......Anyone opening a book guessing which country is next on the list?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

GrayMouser: We also chose the people who wrote the constitution and set up the system. So indirectly, we as a people chose Bush.

Yes, Hasty Ent, I was just thinking the same thing, that entirety isn't majority.

Earniel, I do not say that they are the same. But I am saying if one hates the government for the actions one takes, then it would only be logical that one would feel (at least nearly) the same about the people for supporting the government in these actions.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
I know that our country has made a lot of mistakes in the past, and our leadership has sometimes been poor. But I really honestly think that if you look at the record, America has done far more for the world than any other nation ever has, even though we're the newbie in the forum compared to European and some other nations. We have given so much aid to other countries, often out of pure good heart, without political strings attached.

Just for the record, I agree with that.

About the aid bit, you used to- currently you're 28th in per capita giving, behind most other developed countries (0.1%, as compared to 1.06% for Denmark and the other northern Europeans; even Spain is twice as much).

How ridiculous! We were provoked into attacking Japan and Germany, and after we defeated those countries we let them off easy.

You did NOT defeat Germany (you did defeat Japan.)

Two years after the conquest of Poland, after the other democracies had been begging you to get involved, you entered the war because Japan had attacked you- no other reason.

You went to war against Germany because Hitler declared war on you first- luckily, because it's not likely that Roosevelt could have got Congress to declare war on Germany.

For the war itself, 75% of the Germany Army was destroyed by the Russians; American supplies (especially trucks) played a vital role in enabling the Soviets to take the offensive, otherwise the war might have ended in a stalemate.

Direct American involvement (Band of Brothers and all that) probably shortened the war by a year or so, and stopped the Soviet Union from taking all of Germany and installing Communist governments in France and Italy.

But if anybody defeated Hitler, it was the Red Army.

BTW, John Pilger is a loony; has been for years.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
For the war itself, 75% of the Germany Army was destroyed by the Russians; American supplies (especially trucks) played a vital role in enabling the Soviets to take the offensive, otherwise the war might have ended in a stalemate.

Direct American involvement (Band of Brothers and all that) probably shortened the war by a year or so, and stopped the Soviet Union from taking all of Germany and installing Communist governments in France and Italy.

But if anybody defeated Hitler, it was the Red Army.

You know, the British were there too, along with several others. People do seem to forget sometimes

BTW, John Pilger is a loony; has been for years.

Yes, that was basically my point (a few pages ago, before everyone got excited while I was asleep ) I happen to think it's quite important to know the provenance of an article like that, so that one knows how much importance to attach to it. If you know the author is famous for writing that kind of thing, you might be justifed in thinking they have an agenda of their own. Personally, when I'm judging how much importance to attach an article, John Pilger = not much.

[Sister Golden Hair]

So now the French are all smugglers.......I think the Americans are much more prone to racist remarks than most other countries..I've seen a plethora of derogatory cartoons aimed at countries that disagree with presidential policy.

I've never noticed that Americans are any more racist than any other country. People are people, nomatter where in the world you go.

I'm glad I don't live there, that's all I can say.

How unfortunate for you. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. No offense Coney, but I'm glad you don't live here either. It isn't easy to live among people that hate a country and constantly criticise it, but usually enter it to take adavantage of the good things it has to offer. Nothing like being used.

Anyhoo............It seems that this war is pretty much done and dusted.......Anyone opening a book guessing which country is next on the list?

Like I said, with that attitude, I'm glad you're not here either. Good thing you live in England, that way, you know for sure yours won't be next. Damned American bullies!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Coney
*shrugs* if that is the way you see it.

I see people as being much more than just their political beliefs.....but if you are going to tar people then I suppose a political brush will do just as well as any other



So now the French are all smugglers.......I think the Americans are much more prone to racist remarks than most other countries..I've seen a plethora of derogatory cartoons aimed at countries that disagree with presidential policy......*shrugs* .... I'm glad I don't live there, that's all I can say.

Anyhoo............It seems that this war is pretty much done and dusted.......Anyone opening a book guessing which country is next on the list?

Unless they are in a political office, I suppose? Then, they are naught but a slew of politics?

I did not say that. But France benefits from these smugglings.

Only because you hold that every racist remark about Americans is true. I've seen you yourself propagate such remarks, about loud-mouthed, greedy Americans. I've seen far more remarks about Americans than I have about non-Americans. No doubt the fact that we are vastly out-numbered is a factor in it.

Course not, then you'd have to mingle with power-hungry monsters. After all, it is their homeland.

Well, since everyone is so convinced that we're a bunch of imperialist conquerors, I don't know why the [EDITED] we don't just bloody well decide to let them be right. People will never think America is less than the only begotten son of Evil and monstrosity, so why in the name of all this holy and all that is damned why do we just bloody well prove them right??? We wouldn't win anyone's fricken support if we gave every American penny to the poor of the world. Then they'd scream at us and condemn us for being reduced to killing animals for a living. Name of Heaven, why doesn't the world just pay the next tyrant to bomb us into a crater???


Last edited by Sister Golden Hair
Then edited by Gwaimir Windgem

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Well, since everyone is so convinced that we're a bunch of goddamned imperialist conquerors, I don't know why the f*ck we don't just bloody well decide to let them be right. People will never think America is less than the only begotten son of Evil and monstrosity, so why in the name of all this holy and all that is damned why do we just bloody well prove them right??? We wouldn't win anyone's fricken support if we gave every American penny to the poor of the world. Then they'd scream at us and condemn us for being reduced to killing animals for a living. Name of Heaven, why doesn't the world just pay the next tyrant to bomb us into a crater???

Who's "everyone"? America has support from other nations on the war, and Americans have had support from non-Americans on this thread. Maybe America only notices criticism, and not praise? Certainly, some disgustingly bigoted and extremely prejudiced people hate America. But I think you might be over-stating the problem.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Earniel, I do not say that they are the same. But I am saying if one hates the government for the actions one takes, then it would only be logical that one would feel (at least nearly) the same about the people for supporting the government in these actions.

Okay so the same was a bad choice of words. Blame it on me not being a native English speaker. However I do not see the 'logical' conclusion that when you hate a government you also hate the people who voted for them.

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Well, since everyone is so convinced that we're a bunch of imperialist conquerors, I don't know why the [EDITED] we don't just bloody well decide to let them be right. People will never think America is less than the only begotten son of Evil and monstrosity, so why in the name of all this holy and all that is damned why do we just bloody well prove them right??? We wouldn't win anyone's fricken support if we gave every American penny to the poor of the world. Then they'd scream at us and condemn us for being reduced to killing animals for a living. Name of Heaven, why doesn't the world just pay the next tyrant to bomb us into a crater???

*deep sigh*

[Sister Golden Hair]

GW, although I understand your point, I must agree with Earniel on this one. There are many times that I have voted in a presidential candidate because I agreed with his views and supported his stand on many different things. That's not to say that throughout his four year term in office that I will agree with everything he will do. I support President Bush in the war on Iraq. That doesn't mean I will agree with all that he decides to do until he leaves office. I doubt that there is any Americans that stay completely in agreement with the commander and chief throughout his entire term in office.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yes, SGH, but what I am saying is that the majority of Americans are in support of the actions taken by our government. Not that they voted for him, but that they are in support of what he is doing.

Naw, I never blame folk for that.
Earniel, it doesn't have to do with the people who voted for the government, but with the people who are in support of his actions. I am not talking about the ones who voted for him, but those who support him.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
GW, although I understand your point, I must agree with Earniel on this one. There are many times that I have voted in a presidential candidate because I agreed with his views and supported his stand on many different things. That's not to say that throughout his four year term in office that I will agree with everything he will do. I support President Bush in the war on Iraq. That doesn't mean I will agree with all that he decides to do until he leaves office. I doubt that there is any Americans that stay completely in agreement with the commander and chief throughout his entire term in office.

*coughs jerseydevil jerseydevil*

But seriously though thats true if you agreed with everything your country does or has done there is something seriously wrong!

As for whos next on the news it quoted an american soilder saying 'north korea is next on the list'. Now that would be a mistake

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Yes, SGH, but what I am saying is that the majority of Americans are in support of the actions taken by our government. Not that they voted for him, but that they are in support of what he is doing.

Naw, I never blame folk for that.
Earniel, it doesn't have to do with the people who voted for the government, but with the people who are in support of his actions. I am not talking about the ones who voted for him, but those who support him.

I understand. I have supported presidents that I did not vote for. I am just saying nomatter if you voted for them or not, chances are, there is going to be sometime in their term, on somethings that you will not agree with them.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I agree with that.

[Sister Golden Hair]

*coughs jerseydevil jerseydevil*

NO! Not the jerseydevil. I'm scared.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
NO! Not the jerseydevil. I'm scared.

he scares us all

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Sween
As for whos next on the news it quoted an american soilder saying 'north korea is next on the list'. Now that would be a mistake

North Korea has always been a messier more dangerous situation then Iraq was and exposed the hypocrisy of the current approach we took on Iraq. I dont see us invading North Korea. But its definitely something that needs to be addressed and soon. Hopefully this is something that is already being done behind the scenes as we speak most likely with the chinese playing a significant role.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
North Korea has always been a messier more dangerous situation then Iraq was and exposed the hypocrisy of the current approach we took on Iraq. I dont see us invading North Korea. But its definitely something that needs to be addressed and soon. Hopefully this is something that is already being done behind the scenes as we speak most likely with the chinese playing a significant role.

well deplomicy has worked in the past with them so we can only hope it works again i would not want the americans going to the negotion table with the line 'look what we did to sadam we can do the same to you' thats bound to piss them off

[Coney]

I've seen you yourself propagate such remarks, about loud-mouthed, greedy Americans.

Here we go again If your going to claim that I have claimed that Americans are loud-mouthed or greedy then please use quotes........I think that you'll find that I've never said either (what is it with you trying to put words into other peoples mouths?)

Like I said, with that attitude, I'm glad you're not here either. Good thing you live in England, that way, you know for sure yours won't be next. Damned American bullies!

Ooops, did I misread one of the biggest newsheadlines of last year when the President named countries in his "Axis-of-Evil" speech?..........must be my mistake

Well, since everyone is so convinced that we're a bunch of imperialist conquerors, I don't know why the [EDITED] we don't just bloody well decide to let them be right. People will never think America is less than the only begotten son of Evil and monstrosity, so why in the name of all this holy and all that is damned why do we just bloody well prove them right??? We wouldn't win anyone's fricken support if we gave every American penny to the poor of the world. Then they'd scream at us and condemn us for being reduced to killing animals for a living. Name of Heaven, why doesn't the world just pay the next tyrant to bomb us into a crater???

Whoa! This is beyond me.......if this is the way you think your country is seen by the rest of the world Gwaimir..then I don't know where you are getting your info from.

Unless they are in a political office, I suppose? Then, they are naught but a slew of politics?

Not at all. Maybe I disagree with current political activity......but hey, that's why we have the right to vote......to change things.

To be honest I can understand a lot of the bad feeling from Americans. America has done a lot to help many countries around the world and maybe it doesn't gain much respect for it but I guess the trouble is that as the super-power the international community has maybe come to expect it of you........everyone wants a slice of the American pie, without throwing in a few apples

How unfortunate for you. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. No offense Coney, but I'm glad you don't live here either.

Amen! (which is pretty obvious really, if I wanted to live there, I would).

I wondered what would happen to this thread after the invasion was over, didn't see it becoming the new Anti-American thread tho'