Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Rían]

And because this particular example (pregnant women) really irritates me (because those that use it usually believe that abortion should be legal) - I'm copying my post from the other thread where you brought this up:

by RÃ*an on another thread
And re the pregnant women - do you think abortion should be legal? If 'yes', go to 1; if 'no', go to 2.

1. Then please don't use the example of 'pregnant women' for a cheap emotional effect, since you think it should be legal to kill a baby growing inside a pregnant woman. (please skip 2 and go to 3)

2. I'm so glad you realize what a terrible thing abortion is. (please go to 3)

And my option 3 was to take the discussion to this thread.

[Artanis]

Oh RÃ*an, I'm not following you at all. GrayMouser is talking about murder, and you talk about the upbringing of your son? Where is the connection? Are you saying that GrayMouser's example is showing God's way of bringing up us, his Children? If that's the case, I can do without God, thank you very much. You use the word 'just', but I cannot see the justice.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Modern Christians want to believe in a merciful, loving god that forgives all sins and opens his arms to all walks of life.

uh, what??
Well, they may WANT to, but that's not the whole picture (see fluffy love example above)

In fact, the bible states otherwise, and in many places.

uh, what??
Simplistic view of God (see fluffy love example above)

This loving god they worship in reality is nothing more than an excuse to subjugate the masses and justify acts of horror against their fellow human.

uh, WHAT??
See above.

God is with us, drop a bomb on 40K people, it's ok. God is with us, round up people because they worship differently the same god, but not his son. We'll gas them all and dump their bodies in mass graves. But it's ok, god is with us. Let's capture people from their homes, stuff them in ships under inhuman conditions and take them (if they survive the journey) to various continents to be sold as chattel because the color of their skin is different. It's ok, the bible says we can keep slaves.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think this kind of justification is exclusive to Christians. Muslims do it to. As well, others. [/B]

Well, as I said before, what I'll try to do here is explain the Christian position on these subjects, to the best of my ability and understanding as a long-time Christian. I won't justify those who do these types of things; they are just flat-out wrong, IMO.

And PLEASE note that atheists do the same kinds of things; not only "religious people".

And I'll have to add more detail later - I'm just going to try for a couple more quick responses then I HAVE TO PACK!!!! (but it drives me CRAZY to see some of these misunderstandings!!!!)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
Oh RÃ*an, I'm not following you at all. GrayMouser is talking about murder, and you talk about the upbringing of your son? Where is the connection? Are you saying that GrayMouser's example is showing God's way of bringing up us, his Children? If that's the case, I can do without God, thank you very much. You use the word 'just', but I cannot see the justice.

Oh Artanis, I'm so sorry, but this is getting more involved than I realized, and I absolutely have to get packing for the anniversary party. I'll be glad to discuss it more when I get back; can you wait?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
[B]RÃ*an, I wanted to answer you exactly the way cass did, but she beat me. I don't think cass meant 'good' as morally good, at least I wouldn't have meant it that way. Perhaps a better word would be 'useful', or 'effective'? If evolution is the only thing, as you say, then survival is the only thing that matters, and we, humans, have 'learned' that our chances to survive are better if we live together in societies where there are rules and laws that govern and protect us all.

But even "useful" and "effective" have an implied "good" in them, wouldn't you agree? Something is useful because it is GOOD for the people involved. And why should survival matter? BECAUSE SURVIVAL IS GOOD! Because God made us and declared us to be "good" (valuable/of worth; not necessarily always making the right choices). Again, acc'd to evolution, survival is just one chance among many. It should be equally "good" to NOT survive.

I also question the assumption that we all have a universal sense of what's right and wrong. I don't think we're born with a sense like that, rather I think our moral code is something we learn as children, and our feelings of what's right and wrong depends on what society teaches us.

You have children and you still say this? I think perhaps some of the details are learned, but even very young kids demonstrate a sense/knowledge of things that are right/wrong, don't you think? They may not be able to verbalize it, but they cry when they are WRONGED, and they try to hide it when they WRONG someone else.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Oh Artanis, I'm so sorry, but this is getting more involved than I realized, and I absolutely have to get packing for the anniversary party. I'll be glad to discuss it more when I get back; can you wait?

Of course I can wait. I only wanted to understand what you're saying, really. I'm sure you'll explain when you get back. Have a nice weekend.

Just saw your next post. We'll continue the discussion about good, right and wrong later as well.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

As far as I can see, killing people in the name of god is not Justice. I do not see how God, if he exists and is worthy of our worship, can be doing what is best for God's Children by being vengeful and condoning--and commanding! the actions done in the bible in the examples used previously. Furthermore, I know people have said before that using God's name to do terrible acts is wrong, but I'm going to say it again. To my most basic moral code, not taken from god but taken from my view that we want our species to survive and continue (not that I plan to help with that ) it is wrong to use God as an excuse to kill innocent or even not innocent people. Hell, no one's truly innocent. Now I'm going in circles here and making no sense. I'm sorry, I shouldn't post when I get upset. However I'm still going to post this because...I dunno, 'cause I'm truly crazy. . .

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Well, as I said before, what I'll try to do here is explain the Christian position on these subjects, to the best of my ability and understanding as a long-time Christian. I won't justify those who do these types of things; they are just flat-out wrong, IMO.

Ah, but there in lies the crux. The people who did the things I mentioned all claimed to be Christians and all claimed to have their god on their side.

You may feel these things were wrong. And you would not do these acts of violence and horrors toward your fellow man, but someone did. And the point is: they thought they were just in doing so. They thought that the Christian god smiled upon them and blessed them for these acts. History is written by the victors. If Hitler had won WWII, the history books would show him a hero and a saint for ridding the world of Jews. But some of their children who had blond hair and blue eyes could be spared and raised Christian, being brought into a good German home. Just like the Canaanites.

And PLEASE note that atheists do the same kinds of things; not only "religious people".

History shows, that more wars were started between people of differing religions or from some original conflict that related to religious differences than anything else.

I know you have to pack, so you can respond when you get back from your trip.

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like you to name a few atheists who did those things I mentioned. I'm not being a smartass, I really can't think of any and if you have this knowledge I'd like you to share it.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

And I second that request, for the same reasons. And I apologize for my previous insane post.

Perhaps those people will all be banished to Dante's seventh level of hell of being violent? Apparently that's where I belong, though I don't think I've ever killed anyone

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf
I do not see how God, if he exists and is worthy of our worship, can be doing what is best for God's Children by being vengeful and condoning...

Perhaps he is NOT being vengeful and condoning... I don't think He is.



one more thing before I go and PACK!!!! *must....go.....pack.....*

how do I word this? I hope this makes sense....

There ARE some areas of Christianity that are more complex. This makes sense and I'm glad for it, because LIFE is complex. A "simple" religion wouldn't cut it. When I come across a more complex issue, I'm NOT defending/explaining it out of a sense of "omg, I don't care if this doesn't make sense, I must find a reason to at least make it seem like it makes sense!!". When I find an area that is not straightforward (and again, LIFE is complex and needs a REAL solution that works, not a simple little fluffy formula) (fluffy seems to be my word of the day, doesn't it? ) BECAUSE I've been a Christian and found the Bible and God to be reliable and trustworthy, my reaction is "hmm, this will take some thinking and study, I wonder what is really going on here?".

It's like if you have a trusted and intelligent teacher that has always been kind, and always right, and always trustworthy, and always really, incredibly wise. Then one day they say something or do something that you can't figure out and that doesn't make sense. Do you immediately discard the relationship and throw out all the knowledge that the teacher has previously taught you? Or do you stop and reflect - "this teacher has always acted for my best, and has taught me many wise things, and has always been right - perhaps this teacher is trying now to teach me a more complex lesson - let me pause and think this thru in the light of my knowledge of this teacher's character and knowledge."

Do you guys see what I mean?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Ah, but there in lies the crux. The people who did the things I mentioned all claimed to be Christians and all claimed to have their god on their side.

Ahhhh!! must pack!!!

But just 2 quick things - the "bad" Christians (of whom many are probably NOT Christians) get the press; did you ever see my post about what our church is doing? Just one church?? Please look it up if you haven't seen it. Do a search using my name and "Mexico" or "Romania" - why didn't all those many, many good things from JUST ONE CHURCH get into the news??

Also, please judge Christianity on it tenets, not on the bad Christians that get into the news.

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like you to name a few atheists who did those things I mentioned. I'm not being a smartass, I really can't think of any and if you have this knowledge I'd like you to share it.

Start off with Stalin....

See you guys later!! Whee!! Yay for my parents!! 50 years of TRUE LOVE (which means that even tho they didn't always LIKE each other, they LOVED each other - for a part of True Love is a commitment to another person's good, even tho you don't feel like doing it sometimes, and altho it may be a sacrifice (hey, sounds like what I posted awhile back about God ... ) - they've worked thru a lot of hard things and make something really beautiful!! GO PARENTS!! YAY!!)

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
And why should survival matter? BECAUSE SURVIVAL IS GOOD! Because God made us and declared us to be "good" (valuable/of worth; not necessarily always making the right choices). Again, acc'd to evolution, survival is just one chance among many. It should be equally "good" to NOT survive.

why would it be as good to survive as it would to die? good=beneficial in this context. and seems like theres just two options here adapt and survive or die. i dont see the "many" options you mention. and according to evolution if you can survive then you can pass on that ability to survive to your offspring thereby enabling them and their decendents to survive until that ability becomes useless as far as surviving and they must either adapt to the new situation or die themselves.

[balin]

I would just like to say that I am a Christian and proud of it. I believe in God, and his Son Jesus Christ. I believe that Christ was cucified on a cross for my sins, and that he rose again on the third day. I also believe that one day, very soon, that he will come again in the clouds and take the church (true christians) away to heaven.
Many people think that this is a fairy tale. A mere story made up by people who think that they were told to do so by God. Well, i believe every last word of the Bible. I was saved by Jesus Christ, and because I believe in his sacrifice, and that he is the Only Begotton Son of God, I feel that I will go to heaven to spend out eternity in the very presence of God.
I shudder to think how someone could live out their life without Christ. For those people who read this, and don't know him personally, I hope and pray that you won't just laugh and go on to something else. I don't mind if you laugh, but only if you will go and read the bible. It has answers for everything. And I urge you not to wait too long, you never know when it just might be too late...

REMEMBER: GOD LOVES YOU (Isn't that a comforting thought?)

"For God so loved te world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not persih, but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." -John 3:16-17

[Coney]

Originally posted by balin
I would just like to say that I am a Christian and proud of it. I believe in God, and his Son Jesus Christ. I believe that Christ was cucified on a cross for my sins, and that he rose again on the third day. I also believe that one day, very soon, that he will come again in the clouds and take the church (true christians) away to heaven.
Many people think that this is a fairy tale. A mere story made up by people who think that they were told to do so by God. Well, i believe every last word of the Bible. I was saved by Jesus Christ, and because I believe in his sacrifice, and that he is the Only Begotton Son of God, I feel that I will go to heaven to spend out eternity in the very presence of God.
I shudder to think how someone could live out their life without Christ. For those people who read this, and don't know him personally, I hope and pray that you won't just laugh and go on to something else. I don't mind if you laugh, but only if you will go and read the bible. It has answers for everything. And I urge you not to wait too long, you never know when it just might be too late...

REMEMBER: GOD LOVES YOU (Isn't that a comforting thought?)

"For God so loved te world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not persih, but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." -John 3:16-17

Well I wouldn't laugh at you Balin..............but you'd be amazed how much satisfaction people get from living their life without God or Christ being involved, billions of us do

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by balin
...I hope and pray that you won't just laugh and go on to something else. I don't mind if you laugh, but only if you will go and read the bible. It has answers for everything. And I urge you not to wait too long, you never know when it just might be too late...

No one is laughing at you. You may have your beliefs and not be ridiculed for them.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Disclaimer that I've probably made quite a few times already:

Although I may disagree with certain beliefs in Christianity, as well as other religions for that matter, and I have problems with certain aspects of various religions, I do not think at all that it is my place to say whether they are right or wrong, and I totally respect others rights to worship as they will, in whatever way makes them happy, so long as they are not harming others. Or themselves (i.e. Flaggelents and whatnot. But it's not my place to say they're wrong. Shutting up now. ). One of the things I value most about the American Constitution is freedom of religion.

I apologize in advance and for anything I've said previously that may have seriously offended anyone, because, after all, I am the Lady of Heretical Sentiments It doesn't mean I don't mean some of things I've said, but I want everyone to know I'm not setting out to offend people or belittle their beliefs. Their beliefs are up to them. That's not my business and I'm glad they can worship as they will.

[HOBBIT]

by Balin: For those people who read this, and don't know him personally, I hope and pray that you won't just laugh and go on to something else.

really, you know god personally? Whats his number so i can call him up and get to know him?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
really, you know god personally? Whats his number so i can call him up and get to know him?

I think you need a special phone though. To have a direct line to the big guy at least. Although theres this prayer thing they are always talking about...

[Coney]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
I think you need a special phone though. To have a direct line to the big guy at least. Although theres this prayer thing they are always talking about...

Apparently this prayer method is at a cheaper rater per call (although I have heard the line is usually busy)

[balin]

I know that most of you are laughing. Believe me, I understand. It is hard to believe in something that you can't see. But it takes more than that, it takes faith. There is no phone to talk to God. Its not that simple. He wants us to find him and have free will, all you have to do is talk to him like you would anyone else. He will answer, not like you would imagine it, but he will answer. In your heart. May I ask what type of belief systems that you all have? If any? What do you think will happen to you after you die? How were we created? You you have a theory on that? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I just want to see your viewpoint(s).