Why you believe what you believe I

[Rían]

(one small rabbit trail first )

Originally Posted by Nurvaroo

I also consider myself a Christian for various reasons (see my hotseat posts ).

Than as a fellow Christian, I need to encourage you, Nurvi, to get a Bible and READ it, and pray, for a Christian seeks to do the will of her loving Lord and how can you know His will without reading His Word? *big hug*

(I suggest starting your reading in the New Testament, for that is the document that applies to Christian behavior. As I explained before, the OT laws do NOT apply to Christians; they are under the NT covenant (so your lawyer thing about mixed fabric things is invalid!) )

[Rían]

My opening post was about how I became a Christian when I was quite young. However, on Entmoot I am talking to older people, and I think that they would rightly require more to go on if they want to think about Christianity. So here's what I think today:

First question to consider : Does a god exist?

First off, I think it is reasonable thing for a person to at least consider whether or not any evidence indicates a god exists (not proves - it's impossible to prove either that god exists or god doesn't exist!) To me, I think it is ENTIRELY reasonable, as indeed the majority of people in the world have concluded, that it is a reasonable possibility, and it should be investigated. I think this for several reasons.

A. I think it is NOT mere coincidence that SO many people (indeed, I would say the vast majority of whom we have any type of record), across time and cultures, have STRONGLY felt that SOME type of a god exists, and that there is some type of afterlife, and that the god is interested in their actions in some way. I think that we find, here on earth, that all our desires have a corresponding reality. IOW, we are hungry - and there is food. We desire fellowship - and there are other people around us. We desire beauty - and there is beauty around us. And there is overwhelming evidence that the vast majority of people desire a god - I think it is not illogical to conclude that there is very likely a corresponding reality there, too.

B. I look at the alternative, which is atheism. I take atheism, assume it is true, and make logical deductions from it. One of them is that people are necessarily entirely without value, because they are accidental products of mindless processes, IF the atheistic worldview is true. Yet I see, over and over again, that people EVERYWHERE do NOT act as if this is true; in fact, they act quite the opposite way! We all have a STRONG sense of right and wrong and of justice. This would NOT make sense if people were not valuable! This is one of the strongest indicators for me that a god might exist. If a logical deduction drawn from a premise can be shown to be false, then the premise must be false!

C. Another interesting indicator - Freud thought that if you break from reality, it is a harmful thing to your mental (and therefore physical, too)health. Personally, I think he's right, and we can see this around us. Freud was no fan of religion, and thought that belief in God was a sign of mental illness - he called it "universal obsessional neurosis". So one would think, if he was right that God is not real, that people that believe in a god would be LESS healthy, mentally and physically. Yet over and over, in scientific study after scientific study, we find the exact OPPOSITE to be true - belief in God is one of the most consistent indicators of overall health and happiness! There is study after study that shows that religious beliefs go with a much lower rate of things like suicide, drug abuse and depression, and even that religious beliefs correlate with higher sexual satisfaction Religious beliefs even tend to shorten recovery time from surgery!

Anyway, these are some of the indicators that I think are strong enough to make a thinking person continue in the evaluation.

(con't after I pick up the kiddos from school)


refpost

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I'm sorry, I forgot - are you an atheist? You said you're an apostate Catholic, but you talk about God - do you think a god exists?

I think the English language is not useful for me to answer that question. What I believe in can't be described by any noun. But having said that, I think I needn't say more because you probably know what I mean.

But I am married to an athiest and I can tell you that we disagree on this topic several times a week.

[Rían]

LOL!

SO - to continue my evaluation, I'll move to the final few things that to me, indicate that a god might exist.

D. The incredible balance of the universe - to me, this is a strong indicator of an intentional design; hence, a designer. The more we find out thru science, the more complex and intricate we find things are. In fact, many things are compared to machines, which also have designers. Just the tiniest little difference in millions of factors would make the universe unstable. Again, this doesn't PROVE that a god exists, but I think it is a very strong indicator that a god MIGHT exist.

E. The incredible beauty of the universe - it seems to me that beauty is scattered everywhere across the universe. And it also seems to me, and appears to seem to others, that there is inherent value in beauty itself - NOT as merely tied into preservation of the species. I see such beauty in the stars, in flowers, in the myriad shades of green in trees and grass; in the ocean, in the clouds; in the sound of birds and the whisper of wind in the trees; in the breathtaking power and beauty of a horse and the comedy of a rolly-polly bug; and most of all, in the incredible beauty - physical AND in the soul - of people. How lovely a woman is! and how breathtaking a man! And together - wow! And the beauty of their SOULS - laughter, courage, love, friendship ... to me, this indicates meaning - which indicates intent - which indicates an intender - which indicates a god.

And the opposite also indicates intent - why do we mourn when a beautiful forest is mowed down to make way for an ugly shopping center? Why do we fight to save a beautiful species, such as the California Condor, from extinction? Why do courageous people make a stand in the face of danger to save others? If there is nothing that made us, then we are necessarily accidental products of mindless processes, and there is no meaning in chance.

So that's a brief summary of why I think it is reasonable to think that a god might exist.

What is the evidence to support the opposite opinion; i.e., that a god does NOT exist? Well, I would say that there is much sorrow and pain and waste and apparently chance happenings that goes on, and on first thought, this indicates that there is no god, or there is a god that doesn't give a rip about what he/she/it made. Yet I think the very fact that we label it sorrow and pain and waste indicates that we think of it as a bad thing - which implies values - which, as I said before, implies a god.

SO - I think it's entirely reasonable to think there's a god, and I think it is LESS reasonable to think there is NOT a god.

And next, I'll move on to Christianity, and why I think it is a worldview which accurately describes the actual reality of the universe. But I may not get to this until Monday - depends how the weekend goes And then any final questions, and I'll hop off the VERY warmed-up seat and let someone else go! (your analogy of the heated Volvo seat after a ski day was perfect, Nurvi!)

[Lief Erikson]

I really like that post, RÃ*an .

[Nurvingiel]

Is beauty there because humans need it, or do humans need beauty because we know it exists.

If you had never heard of feta cheese, you would never wake up one morning thinking, "I could really go for some firm, salty cheese... I wonder if such a thing exists..."

If we had never seen beauty, maybe our barren little lives would be filled with something else.

[inked]

Rian, you asked what I meant here:

"It successfully delineates the difference between a loving Creator interactive with His Creation and refuses to ascribe to Him the origin of good and bad, truth and lies, all or nothing. "

The point I was aiming for is that Christians, and indeed, the post exilic Jews dominantly, refuse to make an identification of God as the source of both good AND evil, truth AND lies, all AND nothing. We affirm that God is the Source of Good, Truth, and All. Evil, lies, and nothingness are parasitical, derivative, and incapable of existence on their own.

Clearer?

Also, the post about increasing awareness of the nature of God in the history of the Jews is most pertinent to Elfhelm's quest. There are two views that one may take of what was very clearly the process in human terms of understanding what God was/is/ever shall be like. One, mankind fell from an original comprehension of the nature of God which grasped His Goodness, Truth and Creatorship and, therefore, retain a vague and hazy knowledge of Him which they have attempted in THEIR OWN UNDERSTANDING to satisfy. We, of course, believe that they have been deliberately misled by active forces of the Adversary into perversions of that truth by varying degrees - some so subtle as to deceive the believers (save by the Grace of the Holy Spirit) and some so obviously erroneous as to be rejected by blatant atheists (say Moloch's child-sacrifice or Aztec human-sacrifice adherents). The other is that with sin (in the Fall, as we believe) the knowledge of God was lost completely and He had to reveal himself again and again (the story of Cain and Abel is here pertinent).

If one takes either view one can affirm that God has been active in the world to accomplish the revelation of the knowledge of himself as He is to the extent that humanity can receive that knowledge. Before Christ in anticipation of the efficacy of Christ's salvific work and after Christ in retrospect ( I here must utilize our human conception of time perception, but the whole was accomplished in eternity and is therefore equally applicable to all points in God's eternity, though not in our perception or understanding).

Humans have necessarily, on either view, had a progressive comprehension of the nature of God. Even in our own Christian pilgrimages we KNOW this to be true. That which we thought blameless in ourselves turns out to have at its core self-will and sin-nature that we are only now learning to recognize and submit to the Mercy.

God's understanding of Himself is total. He was not like the genocidal "bowling ball" monotheists used to or even currently imagine in their human comprehensions. He is more like the relational unity we refer to as the Trinity. Love has its foundation in the Divine Nature: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: coequal, coeternal, coexistent. It is our human understanding that has light gleam upon it in the pre-Christian and post-Christian experience.

We have the hope that we shall know even as we are known, according to St. Paul. To which I can only say, "God haste the Day!"

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

(one small rabbit trail first )

Than as a fellow Christian, I need to encourage you, Nurvi, to get a Bible and READ it, and pray, for a Christian seeks to do the will of her loving Lord and how can you know His will without reading His Word? *big hug*

(I suggest starting your reading in the New Testament, for that is the document that applies to Christian behavior. As I explained before, the OT laws do NOT apply to Christians; they are under the NT covenant (so your lawyer thing about mixed fabric things is invalid!) )

I know I know... First I have to get a Bible. And I want to get a proper compelte one that is considered by respectable leading authorities to be a good translation.
I'm gonna start with the OT and work my way through, but I won't necessarily say that everything in the OT was meant as a rule for living your life by God. Don't worry Ri.
And I will pray. And take notes. And annotate (with postits, seems wrong to write in your Bible... maybe not... ) And pray some more.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

First question to consider : Does a god exist?

First off, I think it is reasonable thing for a person to at least consider whether or not any evidence indicates a god exists (not proves - it's impossible to prove either that god exists or god doesn't exist!) To me, I think it is ENTIRELY reasonable, as indeed the majority of people in the world have concluded, that it is a reasonable possibility, and it should be investigated. I think this for several reasons.

i agree that it is possible... though that god may very well be completely different from anything humanity has yet imagined

A. I think it is NOT mere coincidence that SO many people (indeed, I would say the vast majority of whom we have any type of record), across time and cultures, have STRONGLY felt that SOME type of a god exists, and that there is some type of afterlife, and that the god is interested in their actions in some way. I think that we find, here on earth, that all our desires have a corresponding reality. IOW, we are hungry - and there is food. We desire fellowship - and there are other people around us. We desire beauty - and there is beauty around us. And there is overwhelming evidence that the vast majority of people desire a god - I think it is not illogical to conclude that there is very likely a corresponding reality there, too.

not a coincidence... humans are intelligent, and as such desire to comprehend the unknown... however, all our desires do not necessarily have a corresponding reality... many cultural myths exist that are widely held to be true, yet have no solid basis in fact... from UFOs, to astrology, to ESP, to "women's intuition"

B. I look at the alternative, which is atheism. I take atheism, assume it is true, and make logical deductions from it. One of them is that people are necessarily entirely without value, because they are accidental products of mindless processes, IF the atheistic worldview is true. Yet I see, over and over again, that people EVERYWHERE do NOT act as if this is true; in fact, they act quite the opposite way! We all have a STRONG sense of right and wrong and of justice. This would NOT make sense if people were not valuable! This is one of the strongest indicators for me that a god might exist. If a logical deduction drawn from a premise can be shown to be false, then the premise must be false!

the problem is with your premise... though i admit that anything is possible, i do not believe in god at all, or even an afterlife... yet i find extreme value in the here and now... interacting with the people around me and discovering things i had not known before... in fact, i would say that my belief that there is no "hereafter" makes my desire to make the here and now a more positive experience all the stronger

C. Another interesting indicator - Freud thought that if you break from reality, it is a harmful thing to your mental (and therefore physical, too)health. Personally, I think he's right, and we can see this around us. Freud was no fan of religion, and thought that belief in God was a sign of mental illness - he called it "universal obsessional neurosis". So one would think, if he was right that God is not real, that people that believe in a god would be LESS healthy, mentally and physically. Yet over and over, in scientific study after scientific study, we find the exact OPPOSITE to be true - belief in God is one of the most consistent indicators of overall health and happiness! There is study after study that shows that religious beliefs go with a much lower rate of things like suicide, drug abuse and depression, and even that religious beliefs correlate with higher sexual satisfaction Religious beliefs even tend to shorten recovery time from surgery!

do these studies cover all faiths? do they differentiate the orthodox from the more casual believer (which would be a more interesting comparison in my mind)? Do they take standard of living into account?

i don't put much faith in studies, as they can easily be swayed by what questions/results are examined and what question/results are not examined... but i can speak for myself, and i know i'm doing pretty good all around... you can be happy and healthy both with and without religion... this i know for a fact

[inked]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

I realize that's a very touchy subject and very difficult to deal with on a messageboard.

I do have another question, much more relevant. I read this report...
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/151/story_15165_1.html
and it said:
"... over one-third of those Americans who support Israel report that they do so because they believe the Bible teaches that the Jews must possess their own country in the Holy Land before Jesus can return."
and I have also heard people say that US policy in the Middle East is shaped by people who want to bring on the Second Coming.

RÃ*an, do you believe we can bring on the Second Coming by securing the Holy Land for the Jews?

I also don't know what an "evangelical" is, if you'd also explain that it would be cool. Thanks.

Elfhelm,

re:the link report

You must put this in context. Of the 100% of the number of Americans who support Israel (and that woud not be one hundred per cent of the population, of course) about 1/3 of them do so because of their understanding of the Dispensationalist view of certain Biblical prohecies. For this group of persons, which using the late political numbers as a rough guide would be about about 40% of voters times those specifiying moral issues as decisive or 28%, so (voters)(0.4)(0.28)(one third)= .4x.28x.33= 0.036960(number of supporters of Israel). AS A VERY ROUGH GUIDE, this would mean that about 3.6 persons per 100 supporters of Israel in the USA have the views described. In the nature of things this is a small number!

I would argue that if you sought the number os Islamic adherents who approved the actions of the ones we label "extremists", if would be higher.
So you should be careful in attributing blanket associations from either sort of extrapolation.
******************

re: definition

Evangelical means one who having heard the EVANGEL, that is the Good News that God has acted decisively in history in the person of Jesus of Nazareth to free humanity from sin and enslavement to evil, proclaims by word or deed that Good News so that all might come to a saving knowledge of God through Jesus the Christ.

Hope this is helpfual and not intrusive!

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

SO - to continue my evaluation, I'll move to the final few things that to me, indicate that a god might exist.

D. The incredible balance of the universe - to me, this is a strong indicator of an intentional design; hence, a designer. The more we find out thru science, the more complex and intricate we find things are. In fact, many things are compared to machines, which also have designers. Just the tiniest little difference in millions of factors would make the universe unstable. Again, this doesn't PROVE that a god exists, but I think it is a very strong indicator that a god MIGHT exist.

certainly a might, though one could easily argue that if the universe was not "perfect", we would not be here to ponder this... maybe there are billions of universes out there with no such intelligent beings

one could also argue that the universe has an awful lot of irregularities, from genetic dead ends to astrological anomolies that seem to point to a somewhat less that "perfect" design

and once again, this says nothing to the actual nature of this god (or gods)

E. The incredible beauty of the universe - it seems to me that beauty is scattered everywhere across the universe. And it also seems to me, and appears to seem to others, that there is inherent value in beauty itself - NOT as merely tied into preservation of the species. I see such beauty in the stars, in flowers, in the myriad shades of green in trees and grass; in the ocean, in the clouds; in the sound of birds and the whisper of wind in the trees; in the breathtaking power and beauty of a horse and the comedy of a rolly-polly bug; and most of all, in the incredible beauty - physical AND in the soul - of people. How lovely a woman is! and how breathtaking a man! And together - wow! And the beauty of their SOULS - laughter, courage, love, friendship ... to me, this indicates meaning - which indicates intent - which indicates an intender - which indicates a god.

i see beauty too, but it is all relative to the viewer... just look at modern art

And the opposite also indicates intent - why do we mourn when a beautiful forest is mowed down to make way for an ugly shopping center? Why do we fight to save a beautiful species, such as the California Condor, from extinction? Why do courageous people make a stand in the face of danger to save others? If there is nothing that made us, then we are necessarily accidental products of mindless processes, and there is no meaning in chance.

once again, many of us (myself included), do these things because they see the value in humanity itself and the societies we have created... much like i appreciate a neighbor's child as much as my own... it is their personality, their presence, that inspires my love... not where they came from

So that's a brief summary of why I think it is reasonable to think that a god might exist.

and a good one, in spite of all my counterpoints

What is the evidence to support the opposite opinion; i.e., that a god does NOT exist? Well, I would say that there is much sorrow and pain and waste and apparently chance happenings that goes on, and on first thought, this indicates that there is no god, or there is a god that doesn't give a rip about what he/she/it made. Yet I think the very fact that we label it sorrow and pain and waste indicates that we think of it as a bad thing - which implies values - which, as I said before, implies a god.

values can come from real world experience too

SO - I think it's entirely reasonable to think there's a god, and I think it is LESS reasonable to think there is NOT a god.

i think it's fairly reasonable to believe either way... though i would say that the reasonability declines when people try to define the specifics of that god

And next, I'll move on to Christianity, and why I think it is a worldview which accurately describes the actual reality of the universe. But I may not get to this until Monday - depends how the weekend goes And then any final questions, and I'll hop off the VERY warmed-up seat and let someone else go! (your analogy of the heated Volvo seat after a ski day was perfect, Nurvi!)

me next!

i explained my beliefs, but never explained my "why"

[inked]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I know I know... First I have to get a Bible. And I want to get a proper compelte one that is considered by respectable leading authorities to be a good translation.
I'm gonna start with the OT and work my way through, but I won't necessarily say that everything in the OT was meant as a rule for living your life by God. Don't worry Ri.
And I will pray. And take notes. And annotate (with postits, seems wrong to write in your Bible... maybe not... ) And pray some more.

Nurv,

I recommend THE JERUSALEM BIBLE which has the Apocrypha. In addition to its lithsome translations (original languages to French in the first instances and then to Englishfor congruity with the originals and with JRRT's assistance in vetting the translations of Job and Jonah, by the by ). Some are available as Readers Edition, some with footnotes. If you desire to read the Bible, check out the back of your Prayerbook for the Daily Readings section in the Lectionary. This will include selected Psalms on a regular cycle, an Old Testament lesson, an Epistle (one of the letters of Paul, John, Jude, Peter) lesson, and a Gospel lesson. The advatage to this approach is that the Lectionary selectors made an effort to link the OT reading with one or both of the NT selections. The whole Cycle of Lections will take you 3 years to complete in sequence (Year A, B, and C). Now this actually has the advantage of taking you through the whole Bible with time to reflect on the readings. Any side tracks can be investigated at more leisure and length. And, it is good DISCIPLINE, just like learning for university. You have a syllabus, a deadline, and a study schedule!!! BY THE WAY, there will be a final exam...........and it's PASS or FAIL just like life !

[Elfhelm]

These definitions are so general that it sounds like any Christian is evangelical, so why even have the word? What is the difference between an evangelical Christian and whatever the opposite is?

Inked, you should know that the rumor is out there that "evangelicals want to bring on the rapture". As I said, I don't even know what an evangelical is. But there's no doubt in my mind that if Jesus returned, He wouldn't be too happy with what people are doing in His name. So I find the entire statement mind-boggling. In the song "People Get Ready" it says:

There ain't no room
For the hopeless sinner
Who would hurt all mankind
Just to save his own.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I really like that post, RÃ*an .

Thank you, Lief

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

RÃ*an, thanks for giving me your take on it. I won't kneel to a "god" who instructs followers to commit genocide. I'd rather die.

Good for you (I mean it!) If you sincerely look at the OT records as a genocide with wrong motives, then I don't blame you for your position, and indeed I honor your motive behind it, and I would encourage you (and me and everyone else!) to seek to find truth and do good.

I've thought a lot about this subject this weekend. I can't usually post on weekends, but I can always think And what I thought about were some of Jesus's statements that were relevant to this. Jesus said that to see Him (Jesus) IS to see the Father. He (Jesus) is the exact representation of the Father, and He only does the will of the Father.

Those are quite interesting statements, and worth thinking over, IMO, because I think they bear on the subject. And what I see Jesus living out is compassion and love (are you familiar with the times that He wept over people?), as well as total justice and fairness. And there is also righteous anger (are you familiar with the story of Jesus chasing the money-changers out of the temple?) And what I have seen in over 30 years of being a Christian, and coming to know the heart of God, are those same things - over and OVER again. Christianity is not a philosphy or a set of rules; Christianity involves coming to know a Person. And I can give my personal testimony that this is literally the most loving Person in the entire universe.

I don't think it's just quite so simple as calling it a genocide in a way that you and I would define it. From some of the books I read, it says these people had literally hundreds of years to change their ways and/or leave, and they chose not to. And again, looking at the culture, it wouldn't be like Hitler mowing down Poland - on the contrary, these were people that were familiar with war, and I think it's entirely reasonable to assume that anyone that WANTED TO would have left; only the hard-core people, that were TOTALLY committed to their culture (including infant sacrifice and other sick things), would be the ones left to fight. And if they wanted to fight, then they could - it's not like God suddenly gave the Israelites machine guns, and removed all the weapons of their enemies.

And unlike Abraham, if some voice told me to sacrifice MY child to it, I wouldn't.

I think it's right to look at culture, and Abraham would have been familiar with child sacrifice. That's what's so cool about this story - I can just picture Abraham, when God tells him to sacrifice Isaac, thinking, "Oh no ... I thought this God was different, and it turns out he is just the same as the ones I know of ..."

And then the God of Abraham tells him to stop ... and that He Himself would provide the sacrifice.

The Lamb of God.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Is beauty there because humans need it, or do humans need beauty because we know it exists.

Beauty is there because God loves beauty We humans recognize beauty because we are made in the image of God.

If you had never heard of feta cheese, you would never wake up one morning thinking, "I could really go for some firm, salty cheese... I wonder if such a thing exists..."

But I'm not talking specifics - I'm talking FOOD The specifics are part of the wonderful way that God provides for us, and that we, made in His image, exercise our subcreative abilities.

If we had never seen beauty, maybe our barren little lives would be filled with something else.

For us to have NOT seen beauty, our universe would have to be entirely different, and I don't have time to speculate on that! I prefer to deal with reality when talking on subjects like this. And the reality is that our universe is breathtakingly beautiful, IMO. (I wish you could see these cute little purple flowers outside my back door that peep out and give me a shy little smile every time I pass by them )

[Rían]

Originally Posted by inked

Rian, you asked what I meant here:

"It successfully delineates the difference between a loving Creator interactive with His Creation and refuses to ascribe to Him the origin of good and bad, truth and lies, all or nothing. "

The point I was aiming for is that Christians, and indeed, the post exilic Jews dominantly, refuse to make an identification of God as the source of both good AND evil, truth AND lies, all AND nothing. We affirm that God is the Source of Good, Truth, and All. Evil, lies, and nothingness are parasitical, derivative, and incapable of existence on their own.

Clearer?

Yes- thanks! I was about to take you to task over something in that post, but you cleared it up for me (You might want to edit your original post - it reads to me like you're saying that God isn't the source of good, truth, and all.)

Also, the post about increasing awareness of the nature of God in the history of the Jews is most pertinent to Elfhelm's quest.

OK

We have the hope that we shall know even as we are known, according to St. Paul. To which I can only say, "God haste the Day!"

Amen!

Yet He lingers because of love - that all who choose can come to Him ...

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I know I know... First I have to get a Bible.

You can find them at your local bookstores, generally on Tuesdays

And I want to get a proper compelte one that is considered by respectable leading authorities to be a good translation.
I'm gonna start with the OT and work my way through, but I won't necessarily say that everything in the OT was meant as a rule for living your life by God. Don't worry Ri.

I'm a mom; I can't help worrying (in a good way)

Nurvs, if you will take my advice, I think you should take inky's advice. I really strongly recommend that you do NOT start with the OT only; Christians are NOT under the OT rules. They are under the NT covenant. I think the type of reading he outlines is the best - some of each area (OT history, life of Jesus in the Gospels; practical living and doctrine in the letters of the NT, and the Psalms).

And I will pray. And take notes. And annotate (with postits, seems wrong to write in your Bible... maybe not... ) And pray some more.

And write in that Bible! (IMHO) Make it personal and useful. (I know what you mean, tho - it was hard for me to start underlining! I use black pen - it seems more respectful! )

And remember to see God's hand in the trees that you love and He made, with YOU in mind

[inked]

Rian,

As regards Abraham and Isaac, Abraham had indeed been influenced by the surrounding populations and their practices! That was why God had to convince him NOT to sacrifice Isaac. Here is clear evidence of God instructing and people elevating their conceptions of God. So for the nature of God child sacrifice was never acceptable, but Abraham had to learn that in the face of a culture that held the opposite. I think this parallels the discussion of genocide in many ways. Genocide ( as currently defined and thrust back into the OT discussion) was never in God's nature. The ban was as you have discussed it, different.

Elfhelm you do not have to kneel to a God who desires child sacrifice or genocide; He has clearly demonstrated He doesn't.

[Elfhelm]

So true, inked! I read that Abraham story as the end of child sacrifice. Idomeneo is a similar tale from a nearby island that comes to the same end. No more human sacrifice. Both these tales are instructional and seek to put an end to that hideous practice.

RÃ*an, I am inspired by those stories about Jesus, clearing the money-changers from the temple, weeping for Jerusalem. I also notice that he did his preaching OUTSIDE the church, either on the steps, in the fields, or even in boats. And he ate with sinners and he forgave tax collectors and he let wanton women wash his feet with tears. There are so many things that are just incredibly COOL about Jesus that I don't see why so many people are hung up on whether or not he was divine. I wish they could just put all that aside and see how he said how wonderful this world could be if we just love one another.

Sometimes I think he was weeping because he knew they would hate each other because they couldn't agree about him.

[Nurvingiel]

Yeah, I agree with you about Jesus Elfhelm. Both Muslims and Jews regard him as a great prophet IIRC, and I think that's cool. (I think differently, but hey, no biggie.)

Originally Posted by Ri

And remember to see God's hand in the trees that you love and He made, with YOU in mind

God rocks! Don't worry , though this project is on the back burner (I want to do it properly, and really get into it) it will get done. I don't want a Bible in Swedish anyway - I think my reading level is at... um... 2 years old.

I love trees, one of God's greatest creations (that I know about). In some ways, they are more useful than humans. Actually in a lot of ways. Maybe I can't fix nitrogen... but I can... read the Bible!

Who's going? Is it still you Ri? (Couldn't get enough of the comfy Volvo seats eh? )