Abortion.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Snowmane

I'm not trying to go against anyone's beliefs or make anyone angry, this is simply how I feel.

I think the vast majority of people here are with you on that thought.

I think that abortions will happen anyway, so why not make it safe?

I sure wish they'd regulate clinics more ...

On the same note, if it is made legal it shouldn't be abused...and by that I mean that it shouldn't be used as a form of birth control.

Why not? Isn't that you forcing your opinion on someone else?

[Earniel]

I know this is a sensitive topic, but please refrain from any further personal attacks.

your friendly neighbour mod.

[Rían]

*applauds hector and gwai for classiness*

edit - AND applauds the friendly neighborhood mod! good point, Jon!

[Jonathan]

*applauds the friendly neighbourhood mod*

Poland recently adopted much stricter adoption laws. Maybe we'll soon see fresh new numbers regarding the tendency of women to seek illegal and unsafe abortion procedures.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Oh - so, you're not a christian? Could have sworn you claimed to be a christian, but I guess I was wrong about that.

I am Christian (or at least Catholic; the compatibility of those two is up for debate ), but I would argue that that particular huff and guff had nothing about it that made it Christian.

ah, well. What I find hilarious, among other things, is how you immediately got flustered and ruffled and huffy, in the first place, automatically assuming that I was speaking of you in particular when I mentioned christian fundie republicans.

Don't be silly. I grumbled about you generalising. How can you generalise, while speaking of me in particular? "General" and "particular" are antonyms!

It's not all about YOU, kid. But I must say, it's been a fun time watching your knee-jerk miffed huff and guff response to my casual and true statement!

Casual, condescending, and FALSE. Snowmane got neither huff nor guff.

I don't know about evil, but you are most assuredly arrogant. Apparently, the only argument up your sleeve is "Act superior, so everyone will think I am".

He means you don't have to be christian to jump all over Monsieur SnowBane (arguably), if [people] did

Not so. I meant my objection to generalisation was not necessarily Christian.

And some of us non-christian, non-partisan open-minded thinkers

Open-minded...now YOU'RE the funny one.

woman's right to choose abortion, because your nonsensical, superior, snobbish attitude

And now you accuse Hector of acting superior! It just gets richer and richer!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Poland recently adopted much stricter adoption laws.

Stricter adoption laws? Is that good or bad? Is it harder for the good people to adopt, or are they screening out bad adopters more?

[klatukatt]

Man, I hate adoption laws.

It should be easier to adopt a child than get pregnant, but right now if you want a child the easiest way is to have sex with no protection.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Stricter adoption laws? Is that good or bad? Is it harder for the good people to adopt, or are they screening out bad adopters more?

I imagine both. That's the way those things go, usually.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I am Christian (or at least Catholic; the compatibility of those two is up for debate ), but I would argue that that particular huff and guff had nothing about it that made it Christian.

O.K. then!

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Don't be silly. I grumbled about you generalising. How can you generalise, while speaking of me in particular? "General" and "particular" are antonyms!

I don't know. How can I? Hah! Good question, very good. Very niiiiice!

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Casual, condescending, and FALSE. Snowmane got neither huff nor guff.

You nailed the casual and condescending part, kiddo, but false is something I never am. I have a feeling that this is why you fear me so... Yes, I rather think this has a lot to do with why certain individuals such as yourself have problems and anxiety with certain individuals such as myself. You fear the truth, and wish to prove truths false so as to settle your agitated mind which is controlled by your choisen ideologies and religious ideals. Fear motivates such people to respond huffily and nervously, as we've seen so perfectly recently demonstrated here. Thanks for the demo, kid! Very cool, very cool...

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I don't know about evil, but you are most assuredly arrogant.

Absolutely! Right again.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Apparently, the only argument up your sleeve is "Act superior, so everyone will think I am".

Got no "argument up my sleeve," and as far as "acting superior," well, I am certainly not going to "act" inferior, that's for damn sure! Not like other actors & actresses around here. It is what it is, kiddo; it is what it is. And I have no idea nor care to have any idea what "everyone (will) think (s) I am," I know what and who I am, and the opinions and conceptions of other people are their personal problem, not mine. I'm in love with life, and I have great respect and love for myself; what others think and feel about me in this world is out of my control - it is their problem. And yours, especially, it would appear!

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Not so. I meant my objection to generalisation was not necessarily Christian.

Uh, what? O.K. then, whatever you say, kid. But it bears remembering that when one claims a god and religion as the devoted whole of one's entire mind and spirit, one will be judged and measured and identified and accepted, or rejected, loved, or hated, respected, or blown off by the banner that they so dearly wave. I don't think Jesus would appreciate you telling the lost sheep that something, anything, any word or deed that you demonstrated was done son by you selectively outside of your avowed faith. Isn't that supposed to be the Unforgiveable Sin? To deny Christ selectively whilst claiming to be his follower? Everything you say, write or do is as a christian, n'est ce pas?

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Open-minded...now YOU'RE the funny one.

Why, thank you! I must say it is pleasing to have been able to have unwittingly elicited amusement from someone; wasn't trying for funny but I'll take it. Grazi! Very cool. My mind being open, now there's another thing that terrifies those who willingly and immutably enslave their minds to a religious dogma and its accompanying god, or gods. Fear, and perhaps - jealousy? Jealous of someone like myself who has no chains binding their ability to live life with an entirely open mind? Yeah, come to think of it, I believe I might have hit on something right there. Hmm.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

And now you accuse Hector of acting superior! It just gets richer and richer!

Oh, Hector isn't acting superior, silly goose! Don't you know by now he is superior? Jeez, open thine eyes. It is all what it is, like it or not. Richer and richer, yezzir! Indeed, indeed.

Now as for the topic at hand:
My stance on abortion is this: The women of this country deserve the right to terminate their unwanted pregnancy, no questions asked, legally, and safely. The way our system has been set up and operates currently, needs no change. To overturn Roe VS Wade based upon christian morality and christian idealism would be to spit in the face of everything that this country stands for, and in faces of its people who strive and have striven so hard and for so long to embetter. It would be a sick shame to have a regression happen in this country due to religion and religious bias. Sadly, it appears to be trying to happen, what with stem cell research being halted due to people like Bush who have religious-based reasons for halting scientific and medical progress.

[Rían]

Do you support partial birth abortion, Lotesse? Why or why not?

[Tessar]

I know I'm not a MOD of GM any more, but I'd just like to offer that it might be a good idea for all of the people involved in this thread to remember to that this thread is not here for you to be condescending or to make remarks at other people's expense, but instead to -politely- debate the topic and to respect the fact that every one has a right to their point of view.

You will never change someone's mind by insulting their ideals point blank.

Thankees .

[klatukatt]

I support abortion in all forms because I believe that humans have to grow a soul like any other creature. Most animals fail to grow souls, but some can.

I believe humans grow souls early, within the first year of life, and they continue building on it all their life.

But, if you don't want to get religious about it, a fetus is not a seperate entity. It cannot survive outside the mother. It is not alive.

I also support abortion because a woman, young or old, deciding to have a part of her removed because she rationally knows she cannot take care of another life, should not have to be persecuted and put under more strain.
Be thoughtful to these women. They are already going through a lot, without the political contriversy.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Fear, and perhaps - jealousy?

Hey, all this reminds me of the Monty Python Spanish Inquisition routine! Funny!

Personally, I'd like to request that people don't do the psycho-babble fake-analysis stuff, except if they have an advanced degree and professional experience in the field. All it does is prevent discussion on the subject - I mean, ANYONE can say ANYONE has fear and jealousy and whatever else they feel like making up. That won't do anything for the discussion. You might as well say everything is a delusion and be done with it. At least if we're talking thoughtfully and civilly about this topic, that's SOME progress. It's better than anger and hate and screaming stuff back and forth.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by klatukatt

I support abortion in all forms because I believe that humans have to grow a soul like any other creature. Most animals fail to grow souls, but some can.

I believe humans grow souls early, within the first year of life, and they continue building on it all their life.

But, if you don't want to get religious about it, a fetus is not a seperate entity. It cannot survive outside the mother. It is not alive.

I also support abortion because a woman, young or old, deciding to have a part of her removed because she rationally knows she cannot take care of another life, should not have to be persecuted and put under more strain.
Be thoughtful to these women. They are already going through a lot, without the political contriversy.

Yes!! You rock, Klatukatt, bella! I'm absolutely in concordance with you here. It's very, very cool to see your input in this thread; you're a pretty rockin' woman. YAY!!

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by klatukatt

:
:
But, if you don't want to get religious about it, a fetus is not a seperate entity. It cannot survive outside the mother. It is not alive.
:
:

Hmmm... for a different viewpoint, try asking an expectant mother - who has felt the baby kick and has seen it in a sonogram.

[Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Why not? Isn't that you forcing your opinion on someone else?

I don't want to force my opinion on anyone else... I was just trying to say that some women (and men) should learn from their mistakes and not need abortion 5 or 6 times in a few months time. That isn't healthy for one thing...and sometimes (I forget what the name of the depression is) women get depressed just after aborting a fetus and just want to get pregnant again in an attempt to replace that child. (Now, I'm speaking from, not my personal experience, but one of my friend's personal experiences.) Then realize that it was probably not the best decision to make and have another abortion.

I'm not saying that it happens all of the time...or even a majority of the time, I only said that because it is simply how I feel.


Please don't drag me into the 'huff and guff' argument.

Lotesse, were able to guess my religious view points in former post or the above postion of my post? I am Christian. Nondenominational. Not Catholic...I don't enjoy molesting little boys. ( I promise that was meant as a joke and nothing more. A little friendly poke. Sorry if it offends.)

I stated earlier that I disagree with abortion, but refuse to push my beliefs on others, and that's because the point of any form of Christianity is not to bully. It is, rather, to spread the word of God and allow that person the choice to come to him...not pealt someone with religious curses and damn them. That is why refuse to be more vehement about my point of view.
That, however, is neither here nor there.

Yes, a fetus cannot survive without it's mother. But, does the fetus walk when the mother walks? Talk when mother talks? Kick when mother kicks? Cry when mother cries? I believe that a baby is a seperate entity. Part of the mother, and, yet, not.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane

I stated earlier that I disagree with abortion, but refuse to push my beliefs on others, and that's because the point of any form of Christianity is not to bully. It is, rather, to spread the word of God and allow that person the choice to come to him...not pealt someone with religious curses and damn them. That is why refuse to be more vehement about my point of view.

That's a refreshing point of view these days.

Change by example is always the best method.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

You nailed the casual and condescending part, kiddo, but false is something I never am.

I never said you were false; if you will note, I was responding to your reference to "my casual and true statement!", quoted directly before the text you just quoted. It was your statement I called false, not you. I would never say that a person is herself false.

I don't think Jesus would appreciate you telling the lost sheep that something, anything, any word or deed that you demonstrated was done son by you selectively outside of your avowed faith.

I take this confused sentence to be chiding me for not saying that everything I do is Christian. Apparently, anything I say or do must be Christian, by virtue of the fact that I say or do it. I suppose that means my laptop I am posting from must be Christian as well, and the jeans I am wearing, and the glasses attempting to correct my near-sightedness. My hookah must in fact be a Christian hookah. But no. It is only if there is something specifically Christian about the thing itself that it is Christian; it's source has no bearing whatsoever on it.

Isn't that supposed to be the Unforgiveable Sin? To deny Christ selectively whilst claiming to be his follower?

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, my dear. Try reading up on a religion before you assume to tell the followers what they believe, next time.

Everything you say, write or do is as a christian, n'est ce pas?

You got 'N'est ce pas' right. That is not so. In the first place, as I said above, a thing must be its nature be Christian to be so; having come from a Christian does not make it so. In the second place, as much as some of them try to hide or ignore that fact, Christians are not perfect.

Those points having been cleared up, I won't respond to the rest, as it is only more of what I responded to before; just a lot of condescending fluff, with no substance to it.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane

I stated earlier that I disagree with abortion, but refuse to push my beliefs on others, and that's because the point of any form of Christianity is not to bully.

Though I don't think not bullying is "the point" of Christianity, I agree with you that the Bible is clearly opposed to Christians bullying. I personally don't consider trying to save other people's lives to be bullying, though. Do you?

Originally Posted by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane

It is, rather, to spread the word of God and allow that person the choice to come to him...not pealt someone with religious curses and damn them. That is why refuse to be more vehement about my point of view.
That, however, is neither here nor there.

Remember that Jesus did get very irate at the Pharisees, Sadducees and teachers of the law in Israel, because of the way that they oppressed people. He gave some pretty vitrolic speeches condemning their actions. I'm not saying that pro-choice people should be condemned. Trying to show the actions to be what they are is fully valid, however. And just as Jesus took a direct and aggressive stand against oppression, his followers too are right in taking a strong stand against abortion.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Remember that Jesus did get very irate at the Pharisees, Sadducees and teachers of the law in Israel, because of the way that they oppressed people. He gave some pretty vitrolic speeches condemning their actions. I'm not saying that pro-choice people should be condemned. Trying to show the actions to be what they are is fully valid, however. And just as Jesus took a direct and aggressive stand against oppression, his followers too are right in taking a strong stand against abortion.

Jesus, as depicted, is somewhat of a unique individual. Can one assume that something which is okay for Jesus is necessarily okay for his followers?

I seem to remember him esposing the idea of leaving judgement up to god.