01-23-2006, 11:53 AM | #781 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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reasonable faith is what i have found practiced by most christians i have met in life... a belief that there is a god, but a realization that this is in fact a belief in something that is very unproven... and also a willingness to make their own interpretations when it comes to things like the bible and how to practice their beliefs to me, reasonable faith says: "there is a path, but humanity can not be 100% sure what that path is... we should all try our best to follow it in our own way, and respect the different paths others may travel" blind faith say: "my way is the way"
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-23-2006, 12:12 PM | #782 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Quote:
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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01-23-2006, 01:55 PM | #783 | ||
Elf Lord
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Analogy: Two children
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Yes, a child cannot be 100% sure that his parent will provide for him (I'm assuming, of course, in this example, that this is a loving and a well to do parent, for that is the only way the analogy can fit with God. Forget the loving and well to do bit and the analogy loses all meaning, but it works otherwise). He can have reasonable faith that the parent will, however. A lost child who has no parent and has no reason to have faith is behaving irrationally when he says, "therefore it doesn't make sense for anyone to have faith." It is not the child who anticipates his mother giving him food who is making the mistake of saying, "my way is the way." Rather, it is the child who has no reason for faith and thus thinks no one does, who is making the flawed mistake that, "my way is the way." His error is that he can't speak for everyone else's experience. He also makes an error in that he thinks that the faith of a child who has a mother and expects her to provide for him is blind faith, simply because he hasn't had the experience himself. The child with a parent is not making that error, for he knows that there are people out there who don't have a mother, and thus have no reason to have faith that they will get food in the morning from her. He is not making assumptions about other people's experiences. However, as he knows that his mother is seeking to adopt more people, he is smart enough to try to get some of these people he loves off the streets to share in his good fortune. Like the lost child in my analogy picture, you have not experienced spiritual reality. Faith in a God who provides spiritual food is therefore foreign. And of course it's possible that God may stop providing for me and cease his relationship with me. Based on loving relationship and personal experience though, this possibility becomes unreasonable doubt. Reasonable faith is what is called for. You haven't experienced that yet, so for you, faith might seem unreasonable. However, I encourage you along with millions of others around the world, that this spiritual reality does exist and that God does provide for his children. Trust in him is well justified. He won't give you 100% of scientific proof of his existence, but this is not necessary for faith. No one requires 100% proof in order to live their lives. No one requires 100% proof that the food at a restaurant won't get them sick. People still fly on airplanes and use cars in spite of the possibility that they may break down. God is far more reliable than they are, though. People haven't experienced him yet, though, so they logically are less trusting. God opens the door to trust, however. "Seek and you will find," is the word that addresses this. I don't have to convince you that I receive food from my mother. In the name of Jesus, I'm offering you food from my mother. Ask God to reveal himself to you, and he shall.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-23-2006, 01:59 PM | #784 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Some points seem to be overlooked: Faith and trust must be learned. As far as seeking, many seek but not everyone finds. Just a thought.
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01-23-2006, 02:31 PM | #785 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-23-2006, 02:36 PM | #786 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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interesting analogy lief, but not really the angle i am getting at... it's not about whether or not you trust in you mother to give you food, more about what kind of food you would like to get... 99% would agree that a child should be fed, but there is vast disagreement about what they should be fed
a child growing up in the rural china and waking up to a table with a bowl of rice might be perfectly pleased with his loving mother... the same child in suburban america might think his mother was punishing him, "where are my coco puffs?!?" the same is true of faith... i assume you have grown up in a christian family... if so, it is not surprising that you hold the christian faith dear... as do most in western society... many draw morality from the bible yet, that same child in rural china may have grown up with a completely different, yet just as meaningful, faith... they might not even have the vaguest notion of what "the bible" is and a suburban child like myself may have grown up in an environment where any kind of practiced faith was fairly uncommon but the basic morality held by the child in china, the boy who grew up in a christian family, and someone like me who grew up in a mostly secular environment is more or less the same... and these three could live side by side peacefully, respecting each other's differing faiths as alternate paths to the same end to me, blind faith is "blind" because it refuses to see that there is more than one path to personal salvation... it fails to see anything outside of it's own faith... it places the means to salvation before the end... and it does not trust humanity it says, "there is no possible way a child can become a well-adjusted, caring adult unless they are weaned on coco puffs"
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
01-23-2006, 02:41 PM | #787 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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You do realize your coco puffs analogy just goes off the charts of sensibility, IMO
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
01-23-2006, 03:42 PM | #788 |
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Works for me. What would you prefer? Captain Crunch?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
01-23-2006, 04:05 PM | #789 | ||||
Elf Lord
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I'm not sure what exactly you're saying about faith and trust. Would you mind explaining that to me more fully? Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-23-2006 at 04:07 PM. |
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01-23-2006, 04:09 PM | #790 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Quote:
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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01-23-2006, 04:15 PM | #791 |
Elf Lord
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All right, I'll respond on the assumption that I'm interpreting you correctly.
Yes, faith and trust grow over time. They are also learned. God doesn't demand faith that can move mountains in the very start of his relationship with people. Faith grows over time. It starts small, but grows. Trust also. I agree with you .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-23-2006 at 04:16 PM. |
01-23-2006, 04:26 PM | #792 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Quote:
I believe my reaction can be quantified as a joyous, hallelujah!
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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01-23-2006, 04:28 PM | #793 | |
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(and my other question is still pending - what, you're busy at work or something? )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-23-2006, 04:56 PM | #794 | |
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Quote:
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01-23-2006, 05:03 PM | #795 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Quote:
as for 'good god', haven't you heard James Brown lately Stay safe.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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01-23-2006, 05:14 PM | #796 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-23-2006, 05:53 PM | #797 | |||
Elf Lord
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"I believe in the sun, even when it is not shining. I believe in love, even when there's no one there. I believe in God, even when he is silent." Quote:
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Furthermore, it is also plain that God does use suffering for his own designs. He sent his son to the Earth in order to be crucified for us. This horror was God's own plan, and turned out to be most definitely the best. If the most horrible and unjust event in human history can be shown to be the best event, this should alter our perspective some on our own troubles.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-23-2006 at 06:11 PM. |
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01-23-2006, 06:30 PM | #798 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Lief, re your answer to my question to Rad - are you saying that mankind is blameless for the atrocities of WW2?
And my question to Rad stands - Rad, why are you blaming God for what man did?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-23-2006, 08:20 PM | #799 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And Rad, if you DO think God is responsible in some way (assuming He exists), what do you propose he should have done about it?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-23-2006, 08:58 PM | #800 | |
Elf Lord
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Predestination
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In the final analysis, as far as I can see, it is God who is to blame for the atrocities of World War 2 and not mankind. Mankind, in the hands of God, has no free will or choice. As Paul wrote, "God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." I personally like it that way, for any choice that is free of God, he must have chosen to be random. That means that in creating us, he was putting it to random chance whether we would be going to heaven or hell. The perspective that says God is in charge of every part of the process is a far more comforting and in my view scriptural perspective than the one that says God assigned our fates to random chance. As designer of all things, God crafted the horrors as well as the bounties that exist in life. The worst of all the world's horrors was the death of God's own Son. However, what we have seen in this worst of the world's horrors is that in the hands of God, it turns into be fairest incident of life and joy. Thus, we see an example of how evil and sin can be used in the hands of the "potter" to spawn glory. God clearly sent his Son to Earth for the purpose of our salvation. He had the cross in mind when he sent Jesus here. If we all accept that he crafted this worst of abominations, why do we with such reluctance accept that he also is behind the other calamities of the world? I personally see a difference between the will of God and the plan of God. God wills that all mankind be saved. His will is always for the best. It tears at his heart to see the evils of the world. The Holocaust was a perverted evil that surely enraged him. The death of God's Son, how can we doubt that he was enraged and grief stricken at this occurrence? God's will is always for the good and against evil. God's plan has more perspective. It is God's plan that the evil events in the world occur, so that great good may be revealed. For example, the scripture says (Romans 11:32), "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." If there is no disobedience or sin, how can mankind experience God's mercy. There are an abundance of qualities of God that we only have experiential access to because of the disobedience. Warning: No one take that verse out of context to mean that every person alive will be saved. The same chapter talks about some evildoers having their eyes darkened so they cannot see and their backs bent forever. My point in raising that verse is again the sign of how God uses transgression or evil for his own purpose, and not only uses it, but designs it as well, just as he designed Christ's crucifixion. It all turns into good. We thank God for sending his son to die for our salvation. We do not condemn God for making an evil choice. In the same way, it is vain to say that any of God's choices are evil when the cards aren't yet on the table. The Passion of the Christ is the main incident I think we have revealed to us in scripture where God tipped his hand to us by showing what he was doing through the incident, and it is impossible to say that he did wrong. Mankind is not where the final blame lies, in the final analysis. Even if one argues for free will, from that point of view, God permitted all the wrongdoing in the world to occur while foreknowing what would happen. True that he could not violate free will without violating us in a kind of "cosmic rape". However, he could have done things differently. We're talking about the resources of omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence. He could have created a world in which we used our free will for good. He can foreknow whether one throw of the dice will get him free will that chooses good or one that chooses evil. He can predict the dice. Hence, he can choose a universe that freely chooses good and just not create a world where evil is freely chosen. Or supposing God chooses to create a world where there is really free free will, free from his choosing a free will that chooses what he chooses, but God instead chooses to let random chance decide. Mankind is in charge of her own destiny. Mankind has her own will that God does not choose. In that case, there is random chance that we will be saved. In fact, one might even suggest that the dice are loaded against us, for according to the scripture, only a remnant shall be saved, and "broad is the path that leads to destruction, while narrow the path that leads to life." So God loads the dice against us and then tosses. Either that, or we're experiencing a statistically unlikely roll off the dice that is not in our favor. Either way, my eternal life is hinged on the roll of a die. It's not something I'm particularly happy with. Predestination is a far more sophisticated, generous and scriptural view . If God designs the events of our lives from beginning to end, this shows that he cares about us. A God who leaves me to random chance . . . well, I have trouble seeing the caring in that.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-23-2006 at 08:59 PM. |
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