Israel, Gaza, and the Middle East Conflict - Page 4

Radagast The Brown · 06-16-2003, 03:54 PM

Quote:

originally posted by GrayMouse
How do you know? Have you checked their DNA?

Charging into someone's land, running a sword through them, slaughtering their male children and claiming their women as slaves- I may be morally obtuse, but please explain the difference between conquest and theft?

It's a historical fact too - the Philistines were Greek, actually, and the Palastines are Arabs.

How do you know what happened there? Can you see in the Bible any mention of claiming their women as slaves or killing kids? The israelians in that time wanted the land. They conquer it in a war. In wars people get killed (unfortunately).

GrayMouser · 06-18-2003, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
It's a historical fact too - the Philistines were Greek, actually, and the Palastines are Arabs.

?????
Any references for that? it's news to me (about the Philistines, I mean.) As for the Palestinians, they speak Arabic, but like most peoples in the Middle East, while waves of conquerors came and went, most of the peasants remained the same stock.

The Egyptians for example are called Arabs, but they are not related to the people of the Arabian peninsula - they are actually the genetic descendants of the people who built the pyramids, though their language and culture has been changed.

Same thing for the Turks. The Seljuk Turks who conquered Anatolia numbered about 20,000; they imposed their language and identity on a people who are basically the same Hittite-stock who have lived there for thousands of years.

Quote:

How do you know what happened there? Can you see in the Bible any mention of claiming their women as slaves or killing kids? The israelians in that time wanted the land. They conquer it in a war. In wars people get killed (unfortunately).

Joshua 6: 20-21

Quote:

When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it-men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

Numbers: 31

Quote:

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army-the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds-who returned from the battle.
15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

And many more.

Spock · 06-18-2003, 12:52 PM

Yeah but the bottom line is in war the winner takes and that's it. Be it Europe, Asia, USA, Caribbean, etc. etc. You can't rewrite history's rules.

You can only try not to repeat the mistakes of those before you.

GrayMouser · 06-18-2003, 01:09 PM

Fair enough.

But if your only moral standard is winner takes all, then don't claim that the Jews have any special right to this land, and don't object on moral grounds the next time a suicide bomber takes out a bus.

Radagast The Brown · 06-18-2003, 04:18 PM

Quote:

originally posted by GrayMouse
Same thing for the Turks. The Seljuk Turks who conquered Anatolia numbered about 20,000; they imposed their language and identity on a people who are basically the same Hittite-stock who have lived there for thousands of years.

But the Turks are not arabs...

Quote:

originally posted by GrayMouse
When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it-men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Numbers: 31

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army-the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds-who returned from the battle.
15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And many more.

oohh... that. must say I didn't think of that. But it was because, by the bible, god told the israelis to do that... for that there will not be any survivor. Becuas e they were evil to the poeple of Israel, very simple. Actually - I can't see what's so bad- many nations did that in ancient times. Israel was influenced by other nations.

Spock · 06-18-2003, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Fair enough.

But if your only moral standard is winner takes all, then don't claim that the Jews have any special right to this land, and don't object on moral grounds the next time a suicide bomber takes out a bus.

you do realize you're saying it's ok to bomb a bus of civilians and to kill at will just because your ancestors lost all those years ago

I cannot argue with someone whose viewpoint is so skewed by hatred. Perhaps when the Chinese launch one of those surface to surface missles they've been installing that point towards home you'll feel a bit differently.

Cirdan · 06-18-2003, 07:28 PM

He did preface it by stating, "But if your only moral standard is winner take all...". Is that your moral standard?

GrayMouser · 06-19-2003, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spock
you do realize you're saying it's ok to bomb a bus of civilians and to kill at will just because your ancestors lost all those years ago

I cannot argue with someone whose viewpoint is so skewed by hatred. Perhaps when the Chinese launch one of those surface to surface missles they've been installing that point towards home you'll feel a bit differently.

Ah, but my viewpoint isn't skewed in the way you misinterpret. I certainly unequivocally condemn the depraved and vicious acts of the suicide bombers, but then my attitude isn't " winner takes all, and that's it."

If your only standard is "might makes right" you can't object on moral grounds when your opponents adopt the same standards.

Note here that I am only referring to the position you seem to be advocating; I'm not equating the actions of Hamas and the IDF.

I agree that the Palestinians, like other defeated peoples, will have to accept the results of their defeat and live with a compromise that leaves them with a small fraction of their original land. Israel now has a moral claim to exist that is as strong as Canada's , America's , Australia's or Taiwan's (all land taken from the previous inhabitants)

As I said earlier, Arafat was not only a fool but a despicable fool when he rejected the deal offered by Barak, and thought he could squeeze more out of Israel by using suicide bombers (that is, by allowing Hamas and Islamic Jihad to act when he could have stopped them.)

wahine · 06-20-2003, 02:15 PM

Enemy of Peace

Gaza Security Deal

Stepping Up

Some interesting/informative articles I found...

GreyMouser · 07-15-2006, 02:47 PM

Just wondering, has anyone else noticed the Middle-East is on fire?

Spock · 07-15-2006, 05:38 PM

Indeed.
It seems that Hez was hoping others would join them when they attacked from Lebanon, thus embroiling Israel in a full scale war (again). Israel is already fighting in the Gaza and this would have been another front.

Meanwhile, reports that Iran supplied high tech missles to the militants that attacked the Israeli war ship, fuels the rage further.

Spock · 07-15-2006, 05:40 PM

**AS WE HAVE A THREAD ON ISRAEL & GAZA I AM MERGING THESE TWO**

Also since the last post in the old thread was in 2003, a FULL three years ago, I am modifying the topic title to reflect the topic area of concern more clearly.

The Telcontarion · 07-15-2006, 06:33 PM

Read this link, for a different take on what is happening in the middle-east.

http://infowars.net/articles/july200...6Graduates.htm

Lizra · 07-15-2006, 06:49 PM

Where's Rad the Brown been?

The Telcontarion · 07-15-2006, 07:00 PM

This is typically what is happening in the middle-east.
http://www.prisonplanet.tv/audio/080606watson.htm

The Telcontarion · 07-15-2006, 07:13 PM

OOOOhhhhhh, I am dieing for the 911 thread to be reopened. I am literally chomping at the bit.

The Telcontarion · 07-15-2006, 07:32 PM

This how they lie to the american people to get us to believe what they are doing in the middle-east.(The Rumsfeld video)

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles.../110506TDS.htm

The Telcontarion · 07-15-2006, 07:46 PM

Here we go again.
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/apr.../240406WMD.htm

Still be what they are saying now

GreyMouser · 07-16-2006, 10:00 AM

OK, my opinion.

Hezbollah brought this on itself by breaking a de facto truce with Israel along the border.

Hezbollah has no legitimate complaint against Israel since the Israeli withdrawal from south Lebanon.

I think it was acting for 3 reasons:

a) on its own behalf, to bolster the case for refusing to disarm and turn over control to the Lebanese Army.
b) On Syria's behalf, to show that Lebanon will be in a state of chaos without Syrian involvement.
c) On Iran's behalf , to deflect pressure away from Iran on the nuclear issue.

That being said, I think Israel's response has been disproportionate and counterproductive. They should have restricted themselves to hitting targets in southern Lebanon and the Bekka Valley; by targetting the rest of Lebanon they only serve to deflect blame ( both within Lebanon and without) away from Hezbollah and towards themselves.

Spock · 07-16-2006, 11:43 AM

I cannot dialogue with those whose viewpoint is so skewed by hatred. Perhaps when the Chinese or N. Koreans launch one of those surface to surface missles they've been installing that point towards home you'll feel a bit differently.

06-18-2003, 12:52 PM	#63
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Yeah but the bottom line is in war the winner takes and that's it. Be it Europe, Asia, USA, Caribbean, etc. etc. You can't rewrite history's rules. You can only try not to repeat the mistakes of those before you. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

06-18-2003, 01:09 PM	#64
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	Fair enough. But if your only moral standard is winner takes all, then don't claim that the Jews have any special right to this land, and don't object on moral grounds the next time a suicide bomber takes out a bus. __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill

06-18-2003, 07:28 PM	#67
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	He did preface it by stating, "But if your only moral standard is winner take all...". Is that your moral standard? __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

06-20-2003, 02:15 PM	#69
wahine The Original Amazonian Coconut Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Answering no questions, telling no lies. Posts: 753	Enemy of Peace Gaza Security Deal Stepping Up Some interesting/informative articles I found... __________________ Hem, hem

07-15-2006, 02:47 PM	#70
GreyMouser Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 301	Middle East Just wondering, has anyone else noticed the Middle-East is on fire?

07-15-2006, 05:38 PM	#71
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Indeed. It seems that Hez was hoping others would join them when they attacked from Lebanon, thus embroiling Israel in a full scale war (again). Israel is already fighting in the Gaza and this would have been another front. Meanwhile, reports that Iran supplied high tech missles to the militants that attacked the Israeli war ship, fuels the rage further. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

07-15-2006, 05:40 PM	#72
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	AS WE HAVE A THREAD ON ISRAEL & GAZA I AM MERGING THESE TWO Also since the last post in the old thread was in 2003, a FULL three years ago, I am modifying the topic title to reflect the topic area of concern more clearly. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 07-15-2006 at 05:46 PM.

07-15-2006, 06:33 PM	#73
The Telcontarion The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: By the shores of cuivinien Posts: 694	Read this link, for a different take on what is happening in the middle-east. http://infowars.net/articles/july200...6Graduates.htm __________________ Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Last edited by The Telcontarion : 07-15-2006 at 06:40 PM.

07-15-2006, 06:49 PM	#74
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Where's Rad the Brown been? __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

07-15-2006, 07:00 PM	#75
The Telcontarion The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: By the shores of cuivinien Posts: 694	Typical This is typically what is happening in the middle-east. http://www.prisonplanet.tv/audio/080606watson.htm __________________ Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

07-15-2006, 07:13 PM	#76
The Telcontarion The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: By the shores of cuivinien Posts: 694	OOOOhhhhhh, I am dieing for the 911 thread to be reopened. I am literally chomping at the bit. __________________ Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

07-15-2006, 07:32 PM	#77
The Telcontarion The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: By the shores of cuivinien Posts: 694	Anothe typical example This how they lie to the american people to get us to believe what they are doing in the middle-east.(The Rumsfeld video) http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles.../110506TDS.htm __________________ Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Last edited by The Telcontarion : 07-17-2006 at 10:59 AM.

07-15-2006, 07:46 PM	#78
The Telcontarion The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: By the shores of cuivinien Posts: 694	More lies Here we go again. http://prisonplanet.com/articles/apr.../240406WMD.htm Still be what they are saying now __________________ Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

07-16-2006, 10:00 AM	#79
GreyMouser Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 301	OK, my opinion. Hezbollah brought this on itself by breaking a de facto truce with Israel along the border. Hezbollah has no legitimate complaint against Israel since the Israeli withdrawal from south Lebanon. I think it was acting for 3 reasons: a) on its own behalf, to bolster the case for refusing to disarm and turn over control to the Lebanese Army. b) On Syria's behalf, to show that Lebanon will be in a state of chaos without Syrian involvement. c) On Iran's behalf , to deflect pressure away from Iran on the nuclear issue. That being said, I think Israel's response has been disproportionate and counterproductive. They should have restricted themselves to hitting targets in southern Lebanon and the Bekka Valley; by targetting the rest of Lebanon they only serve to deflect blame ( both within Lebanon and without) away from Hezbollah and towards themselves.

07-16-2006, 11:43 AM	#80
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	I cannot dialogue with those whose viewpoint is so skewed by hatred. Perhaps when the Chinese or N. Koreans launch one of those surface to surface missles they've been installing that point towards home you'll feel a bit differently. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."