Dying for Colored Rags

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, I happen to think that the American flag at times is one of the prettiest sights there is. There is nothing like seeing one of the huge ones that some companies display, blowing in a strong breeze. It isn't just a piece of pretty cloth. It says something, and means something. When I have been present at games, or races, and the national anthem is played, there is no feeling on earth like the pride one gets with those two things combined together at the same time. It tells me that I am very lucky to be a citizen of this country, and that opportunity is mine for the taking.

[jerseydevil]

Elf Girl -
As you can deduce - I support out governments recent actions - it's about time we took a stand. If we don't do soemthing about the Middle East - other than debate - 9/11 will look like childs play. Maybe part of my support is because that horrific day occurred only 40 miles from me. I had been to those towers a thousand times. My uncle worked in those towers. If a certain president had done something instead of letting public opion constantly ruling his every move - maybe we would have gotten Osama bin Ladin - befor 9/11 occurred. He started to go after him - and then called off the operations because of lack of support in America.

have always had an American flag - even when I disagreed with the government - like under Clinton. The flag represents the country, it's history, it's cuilture and it's people. I am proud of this country. Not too many countries, if any, would a poor black child growing up in brooklyn whose parents immigrated from Jamaica - be able to become one of the most powerful men in America - let allow be encouraged to run for the presidency. I think that is one of the many things that make this country great.

[Elf Girl]

Thank you for your opinion, jerseydevil. As you can see, the flag means differant things for you and me. When you look at it, you see our heritage and culture. When I look at it, I see our government. Both reasonable things to see.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
Thank you for your opinion, jerseydevil. As you can see, the flag means differant things for you and me. When you look at it, you see our heritage and culture. When I look at it, I see our government. Both reasonable things to see.

So you don't like democracy and the checks and balances? Because that IS the US government. The US Government are the people who WE, as citizens, elect. The governmen is the people of the US - you may not agree with majority of Americans right now - but that is your choice. I don't always agree with out government.

Each state has a set of representatives to represent their views in Congress to the Federal Government. I can't see a better form of government than what we have. It may not be perfect - but it's damn good and it has enabled a great country to grow after only 225 years and has given numerous oppurtunities for anyone willing to work for it.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, I happen to think that the American flag at times is one of the prettiest sights there is. There is nothing like seeing one of the huge ones that some companies display, blowing in a strong breeze. It isn't just a piece of pretty cloth. It says something, and means something. When I have been present at games, or races, and the national anthem is played, there is no feeling on earth like the pride one gets with those two things combined together at the same time. It tells me that I am very lucky to be a citizen of this country, and that opportunity is mine for the taking.

*nods*

Reminds me of the UK at the turn of the 20th century (from what I have read anyway)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Coney
*nods*

Reminds me of the UK at the turn of the 20th century (from what I have read anyway)

Would you care to elaborate on that, please?

[Coney]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Would you care to elaborate on that, please?

It's called The British Empire under the rule of Queen Victoria....It's a pretty big thing

[Lizra]

Three years ago, for my birthday (in the middle of a snowy January) I requested a big outdoor flagpole and flag for my garden. I really enjoy raising and lowering the flag, it makes me feel good! In my mind, I sing taps! (Army brat! )

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Coney
It's called The British Empire under the rule of Queen Victoria....It's a pretty big thing

I see. So you are saying that the way I feel when I see the American flag is a bad thing, and somewhat emperialistic?

[Coney]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I see. So you are saying that the way I feel when I see the American flag is a bad thing, and somewhat emperialistic?

Why? Do you equate exuberant affiliation to your flag with imperialism? (I was commenting on the revierance to the way americans view nationality, not the political similarity )

[azalea]

As an adult, I have come to have an appreciation for the flag that I didn't have as a teenager (think the Pledge of Allegiance scene in Peggy Sue Got Married). I actually tear up when the flag passes during a parade, because to me it represents democracy, an imperfect form of government, yet the best workable one that exists. It also represents the sacrifices that have been made in the name of democracy -- so many have died defending it, and so many have died in the pursuit of bringing it to others. I don't agree with a lot of things the government does, and I tend to think most politicians are crooked, but in the end, democracy is the best way we have of ensuring the freedom of each individual, and their rights under the law. And when the parade goes by in those parades, I am always so saddened that hardly anyone stands as it passes. I am not by any means a "nationalist." I love the world, and I love all of the other countries, and respect the flags/ anthems of other countries that strive to provide a free society for its citizens. But since the parade attendees are American citizens, they should show respect for AMERICAN FREEDOM REPRESENTED, which is what the flag is. The last time this happened (and it happens every time) I wanted to yell at everyone around me to stand up, and to make their kids stand up. There was even a Cub Scout troop there, and their troop leader was right there, and he didn't even direct their attention to the flag or make them quiet down, much less have them stand up. And that's part of what the Boy Scouts of America is all about!
It's one thing not to do it if you have a personal reason for not doing it, but all of those people obviously just take the whole thing for granted, like most of us do on a daily basis. Standing for the flag is the VERY LEAST I can do to show my appreciation for my freedom and the opportunities afforded me by virtue of my living here.
Flag burning is neither here nor there to me. The flag itself is a piece of cloth, and buring it will never destroy what it represents. But complacence could.
When people fight and die in wars, they are not doing it for a piece of cloth if they truly believe in the cause for which they are fighting. There are many causes that are not worth killing for, but defending others' freedom is quite noble, and I suppose there are times when it is impossible to defend freedom in a timely manner without risking lives, due to the greed and power-mongering (and also the occasional hard-headedness in terms of POV, policy, etc.) of so-called leaders.

[afro-elf]

I question anyone if they are not proud of their country and nationality

Why? It's just a piece of rock. I just happened to be born in New Zealand because some random events lead to my creation. I don't see how one person being born on one piece of rock as opposed to another means anything. I don't personally see that nationalism is all that important.

Well that's your view of nations - then I suppose you would have no problem living in Norht Korea then.

Sheeana, say perhaps, that you are on vacation in ...erm...Australia or something, and NZ is blown to smithereens, would you still look it as "just a rock"? Or would it then be your home?

*forgive me if I didn't get exactly what you were saying about not giving a poop for your country, maybe I got that wrong? If I did, explain it to me so that I can understand.*

I think that you are on the wrong track. I don’t think she was saying that she does not care about NZ. Or that she wants to live in NK or Afganistan, but that she does not think that being born in NZ makes her BETTER than others, indifferent, or lesser than others.


I am not a patriotic person. I am not really a “die hard supporter” ( see below)of anything. I don’t own an American flag, in the old days I rooted for the CCCP in ice hockey because they awesome to watch, but I didn’t own a Soviet flag either. I have had my best relationships with women who were NOT born in America. I probably would not publicly join in a rally. But, my give quiet support. Its just not part of my nature.


However, though I would NOT personally GO fight for America. I would go BACK to America to defend it. Not because of the flag but because of my family and friends

However, though I would NOT personally GO fight for America. I would go BACK to America to defend it. Not because of the flag but because of my family and friends.

I am proud of this country. Not too many countries, if any, would a poor black child growing up in brooklyn whose parents immigrated from Jamaica - be able to become one of the most powerful men in America - let allow be encouraged to run for the presidency. I think that is one of the many things that make this country great.

It does not make me feel PROUD to an American. It makes me feel LUCKY to be an American.

i guess it depends how peopel view the world - either they look at their skin color and their ancestors for pride - or they look at who they are and where they live.

For myself I have no strong ties to any of those. My self worth does not depend on it. From my POV, when someone says my “people” did this it is like saying “ We won the championship.” YOU did not do jack.

[afro-elf]

I agree with the following:



As for nationalism, I don't think that the principle itself is bad. A feeling of being part of a society, a nation, can be a good. It makes you care about the nation so that you might want to help maintain and keep it.

However it can be taken far too far when it becomes a strife between people just because they're from a different nation. The idea of 'This is our nation, you have nothing to do here, you have nothing to say here so just go away." is rather frightening at times. You can be part of a particular nation but that doesn't mean you can disrespect others who are not. Nor does it mean that you have the right to look only at your own interests. It's only natural to do so but it's sometimes important that you're able to look beyond nations to do things for the greater good.

I like where I am, it's a nice place to live, as far as places go. But just a place. Just some accident that had me born here.

I care about the people. I identify with cultural groups.
I care nothing for borders, nothing for flags.

I think of them kind of like nametags, but for countries. The flag stands for the country. The country does not stand for the flag.

[afro-elf]

Although I was born in the US, I've never identified with being American. My parents were immigrants and raised me culturally as a Ukrainian. My father regretted coming to the US, my mother did not. I'm ambivalent. I'm here for now, and it's not too bad. Could certainly be worse.


Have you been to THE Ukraine ( it sounds cooler)? If so what are your thoughts. I have been there twice and was (perhaps still) considering staying there for long stretches. It’s ONLY the over powering effects of serotin that makes be consider such actions.

[afro-elf]

When I read this

Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colorful rag is unfurled


I see it more a meta-allegiance to humanity.

To quote Sting

We share the same biology regardless of ideology

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by afro-elf
I think that you are on the wrong track. I don’t think she was saying that she does not care about NZ. Or that she wants to live in NK or Afganistan, but that she does not think that being born in NZ makes her BETTER than others, indifferent, or lesser than others.

Well I don't either - but I will support America before supporting a country halfway aroudn the world.

However, though I would NOT personally GO fight for America. I would go BACK to America to defend it. Not because of the flag but because of my family and friends.

So you would not fight for the freedoms that this country enjoys and affords people?

It does not make me feel PROUD to an American. It makes me feel LUCKY to be an American.

Well it makes me feel proud to be an American. Proud to be part of a great country that allows this. I haev often thought how life would be if I lived under the Sovet Union, in war torn areas of Africa. I am very happy that I live in America - but America has been made by it's history and it's people. As an American - I shape America's futute and as such I am proud of it.

For myself I have no strong ties to any of those. My self worth does not depend on it. From my POV, when someone says my “people” did this it is like saying “ We won the championship.” YOU did not do jack.

hey - we won the Stanley Cup.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by afro-elf
When I read this

Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colorful rag is unfurled


I see it more a meta-allegiance to humanity.

To quote Sting

We share the same biology regardless of ideology

But when it comes between my home burning and my neigbors home - I'll protect my own first. When it comes to saving the life of a family member versus a stranger's - I'll same my family. Anyone who says they wouldn't - is lying (or they want to collect the insurance, or they hate their family)

[afro-elf]

Hey JD,

To make it quick, I think that you should take care of your own first.

But what constistutes one's own is fluid.

If it came down to protecting the Ukrainian family that I love ( what ever the hypothetical situation might be) or American strangers it would be the former.

If can down to protecting a Pre-movie Tolkienite or post movie Tolkienite well its the former.

[afro-elf]

So you would not fight for the freedoms that this country enjoys and affords people?

I think I need to clarify the statement that prompted the above.

I will defend my "HOME" but I will not go to another country.

I would join the coast or national guard.

[wahine]

If can down to protecting a Pre-movie Tolkienite or post movie Tolkienite well its the former.

Lovely analogy AE!