Good and Evil

[Coney]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Perhaps it is the amount of understanding the act in the mind of the perpetrator. For example: if a child kills another child, with the intent of killing, how much does that child understand the act or the evil of it? Isn't this why kids can't be tried as adults under a certian age?

Yes I agree, to commit a truely evil act then you have to fully understand what you are doing (children, the clinically insane etc don't really understand the full implications of their actions)....that's why I raised the question of wether people think that an evil action in inherant.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Coney
Interesting........I always consider an evil act to be an evil act, whatever the circumstances.

I can understand why people would commit such acts.(say for example somone rapes someones wife, then the hubby goes and kills the rapist) but it would still be an evil act, done in all conciousness. I guess what is evil is up to our own morals/ethics.

So, in your opinion, how does an evil act become less evil?

No, I think you're reading me wrong. The act itself is always evil. Rape, murder, theft, etc. These are always evil. But the circumstances under which they occur vary greatly. I. E. take theft. Someone who steals for the thrill of it, or someone who steals just to be rich or live luxuriously: This is one end of the "theft" spectrum. But if someone steals because they are starving, this is the other end of the spectrum. The action itself, the act of stealing, is wrong, period. BUT I believe it more evil to steal for fun or for luxury than to steal for basic necessity.

IR, that is your opinion, perhaps. I believe strongly that free-will is a truth. I also believe that Good and Evil are absolutes: BUT I believe that they do not apply to animals, or that they apply to animals in a different way. I. E. Those animals that just roam around killing for no reason whatsoever (not even territory, just drifters) would be "evil" animals, IMO. But I don't believe that animals have free will, so those which are evil cannot help it. But as I believe that Mankind is created separate from animals (which, naturally, as an agnostic, you do not believe), I believe that Man is separate from animals in such matters.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
*ahem*

There can be circumstances under which an evil action can be understood and forgiven. That does not mean it actually is less evil.

If, say, Murder is an evil action, there are still sometimes going to be circumstances where people will feel that it's somehow justified. This is not because the action is /less/ evil under those circumstances, but because we ourselves would tend to act evil were we faced with the same situation.

Yes, I agree with that. That sounds like pretty much what I've been trying to say.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
IR, that is your opinion, perhaps. I believe strongly that free-will is a truth. I also believe that Good and Evil are absolutes: BUT I believe that they do not apply to animals, or that they apply to animals in a different way. I. E. Those animals that just roam around killing for no reason whatsoever (not even territory, just drifters) would be "evil" animals, IMO. But I don't believe that animals have free will, so those which are evil cannot help it. But as I believe that Mankind is created separate from animals (which, naturally, as an agnostic, you do not believe), I believe that Man is separate from animals in such matters.

I really dont think you can have evil animals. Maybe in cartoons but not in real life. Animals just survive and breed thats all they do. What may seem like a horrific act to us is just the way life is for animals. And I DO believe that man is seperate from other animals in this matter. Thats what I was trying to say. That we can percieve good and evil therefor it exists to us. We can even impose it on creatures that cant conceptualize it (evil lion!! eating that poor innocent antelope). Buts just our way of looking at the world.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
I really dont think you can have evil animals. Maybe in cartoons but not in real life. Animals just survive and breed thats all they do. What may seem like a horrific act to us is just the way life is for animals. And I DO believe that man is seperate from other animals in this matter. Thats what I was trying to say. That we can percieve good and evil therefor it exists to us. We can even impose it on creatures that cant conceptualize it (evil lion!! eating that poor innocent antelope). Buts just our way of looking at the world.

I think we conceptualise good and evil because they trigger an emotional response in us........wether animals have these emotions is beyond me.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yes, I'm not too sure of that. While their have been records of animals like the ones I was talking about, they're quite rare. I'm not really sure about the evil animals. On the one hand, I believe that killing for reason at all is wrong, period. On the other hand, such animals are unconscious of their actions, and are incapable of actually being good. I think probably it would have been better to say that some animals act in manners which are evil. But we seem to disagree on Good and Evil being a man-made concept, or originating from something higher.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Not so sure I agree with the notion of animals being evil if they kill. I mean, is this not instinctive, and usually for survival purposes with them? They are not capable of reasoning, like people.

[Wayfarer]

Depends, depends, depends...
Have I mentioned it Depends?

Has anyone offered a definition of good and evil yet? I'd like to know before I start arguing about whether or not animals fit the bill of either.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yes, for survival purposes I agree with you. But there have been cases of animals which killed for no determinable reason; not food, not territory, not rivalry, etc. What you said them not reasoning is basically what I said in my last post: while the action of doing such things is wrong, the animals themselves are not really, as the only reason they do it is because of genetic defects, I presume; as animals do not reason, unlike humans, they have absolutely no way of fighting such defects.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Yes, for survival purposes I agree with you. But there have been cases of animals which killed for no determinable reason; not food, not territory, not rivalry, etc.

like what cases? seems to me theres always a reason to kill in the wild. that is to say every kill has a reason. killing is a dangerous thing. Animals (unlike humans) dont just go out and do it for the heck of it because its too risky to their own survival. Maybe if they have like rabies or something but then thats still an explanation. They have become mentally imbalanced.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I agree with you, IR.

the animals themselves are not really, as the only reason they do it is because of genetic defects, I presume

See?

I know this may seem narrow-minded, but I believe that God is Good, and Satan is Evil. I believe that if something of God seems Evil or Wrong, then that is a flaw in my own perception of things. Yeah, I'm dumb.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
It seems to me, RÃ*an, that your post and SGH's aren't in disagreement though, really. To me, SGH was talking primarily about the effect upon the victim, while you were talking about the cause.

Some people have more excuse for doing their evil, but the thing that is done is just as horrible regardless of who did it, is what SGH is saying. However, they aren't just as wicked as the individuals who did it with the full knowledge of what they were doing, which is what RÃ*an is saying.

Or, SGH, am I misunderstanding you?

I was responding to the last part of her post, which I probably took out of context. She was talking about the effect upon the victim, and I wanted to point out that there are more victims involved than the one actually injured, and intent or lack of intent, IMO, affects how much injury there is.

But I'm not posting clearly today 'cause I'm not feeling well

[Wayfarer]

Was I wrong to ask for a definition?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Not so sure I agree with the notion of animals being evil if they kill. I mean, is this not instinctive, and usually for survival purposes with them? They are not capable of reasoning, like people.

I agree - people are on a higher plane than animals, IMO (through no effort on our part, it is merely because that's the way God made us (IMO, obviously ) - in fact, in the Bible, people are assigned to be the caretakers of creation, and we're often pretty lousy at it). Animals have instinct; we, in addition to instinct, have morality.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Was I wrong to ask for a definition?

No, but you haven't been to the bday thread yet to thank everyone that wished you a happy bday, you insufferable person , so we're ignoring you!! (at least I am )

Do you want to provide one for us? I would like to see your def.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Coney
So you believe that some people are born with evil tendancies and that some people are drawn towards them?......and that circumstances make those tendancies stronger?

That is very interesting.....

Well, ALL people are born with evil tendencies, IMO (that's what I think the Bible means by the 'sin nature' that all people have) - but there's lots of evil tendencies to choose from, unfortunately, and your areas of temptation are probably different from mine, just like your strong areas are probably different from mine. I'm not sure what you mean by 'drawn towards them'....

Yes, circumstances can make those tendencies harder to fight and resist - that's why the Bible says to 'flee from temptation'. IOW, if you tend to gossip, then you might need to just politely excuse yourself from a conversation that is starting to get into hurtful gossip, until you are strong enough to successfully resist it.(and for the umteenth time , I'm arguing from the Biblical position because that's what I, personally, believe to be the correct worldview- I know most of you guys don't believe it, tho, but that doesn't matter - you can present your arguments from your particular world-view, which makes sense to YOU.)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Was I wrong to ask for a definition?

Hey, I gave you one!

[Wayfarer]

Eh? Oh, yeah. Sorry.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Just a joke, dunwarry aboutit!

[Lief Erikson]

Sorry I missed so much of the discussion; my computer wouldn't connect to the Internet.

Originally posted by Coney
And what would this excuse be Lief?..........just curious..

I think people answered that question very well already, but I'll just repeat briefly what some of us already agreed on about evil and guilt.

If I might copy RÃ*an and use the Bible as a reference, though I doubt that this particular passage is one that anyone would at all disagree with. Jesus said that the one who does an evil act with knowledge of what he is doing should be beaten with many blows, while the one who does that act without the knowledge will be beaten with few blows.

So basically, the evil that the perpetrator commits is more forgiveable if they didn't know what they were doing. If someone in the Middle East has been brought up in a program to hate Americans, I'd be more ready to forgive them for bombing a U.S. Embassy than I'd be willing to forgive someone who grew up in America. What was done is just as evil no matter who does it, but the evil that the individual who committed it is guilty of can alter.