Abortion and Handguns - Page 4

Silverstripe · 11-15-2002, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Murder is the intentional killing of another human being by another, that is all I am saying. You can't support capital punishment but not abortion if you say abortion is murder and murder is wrong.

Now, that isn't quite accurate either. Killing another human being in self-defense is not considered murder. And capital punishment, at least where I live (USA), is the killing of a human being who has gotten a trial and has been convicted of murder. In the case of an abortion, the unborn child has NOT been convicted of murder and has NOT gotten a trial. In fact, the unborn baby has no say in the matter at all and cannot even defend himself/herself.
Although they do try to move away from the needle ... but there's nowhere to go ...
Also, even in the case of capital punishment, here we TRY to carry out the death penalty humanely. In the case of abortions, the baby's brains are often sucked out, or lungs filled with acid. As for partial birth abortions, people who support them generally disgust me.
In some ways, I can see the support of abortion by people who don't believe that the fetus is a person, though I think most believe that life begins before birth, even if they do not believe it begins at conception.

Silverstripe · 11-15-2002, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Coney
"So it's ok to kill people if they are undesired? Is that what you're saying?"

No.

IMO a foetus does not become a "life" until it is capable of living outside of the mothers body.

If you disagree with that, fine.

I disagree with you, but that particular view does not make me anywhere NEAR as angry as the people who believe that an unborn child is a life -- a person, even -- and seem to feel that it doesn't matter anyway. Personally I think that "living outside the womb" would be a much better legal indicator of personhood than birth is, although I would still be against abortion.

Dunadan · 11-15-2002, 05:23 AM

Quote:

"So it's ok to kill people if they are undesired? Is that what you're saying?"

It is really unhelpful to try to twist people's words like that. Of course no-one believes that!

Obviously, you believe that personhood starts at or around conception.

I think that you have to accept that most people actually don't agree with you, and that means that they don't think it's murder.

Yeah, isn't it interesting that the people who are anti-abortion are often pro-capital punishment?

Kill all abortionists with your hand guns!

Draken · 11-15-2002, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silverstripe
Also, even in the case of capital punishment, here we TRY to carry out the death penalty humanely.

Well I'll buy that for lethal injections and lethal gas... but run that electric chair idea past me again...

Laurelyn · 11-15-2002, 07:46 AM

To Draken: ZZZZZT ;D

emplynx · 11-15-2002, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cassiopeia
*If you think abortion is murder, then so is euthanasia and capital punishment.

Euthanasia is murder. Capital punishment is murder, BUT IT IS MURDER OF CRIMINALS, HUMAN CHILDREN ARN'T CRIMINALS!!!

jerseydevil · 11-15-2002, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by emplynx
Euthanasia is murder. Capital punishment is murder, BUT IT IS MURDER OF CRIMINALS, HUMAN CHILDREN ARN'T CRIMINALS!!!

Why is euthanasia murder when the person is CHOOSING to die? If I get alzhiemers or some debilitating desease or I sit there not knowing where I am and can only stare out the window not knowing even my family around me - please kill me. I've seen too many people deal with alzhiemers.

Hasty Ent · 11-15-2002, 12:26 PM

I agree with you 100%, jersey devil. I've seen terminally ill people lose all dignity towards the end, and have informed my family that this is not how I want to go.

emplynx · 11-15-2002, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Why is euthanasia murder when the person is CHOOSING to die? If I get alzhiemers or some debilitating desease or I sit there not knowing where I am and can only stare out the window not knowing even my family around me - please kill me. I've seen too many people deal with alzhiemers.

I realize this isn't a euthanasia thread, but I'll say a little anyway.
This is one of the hardest ethical issues ever. I think it's terrible for people to have to suffer at their old age, but they are still human beings. I was about to say I believe that it's only God's right to end human life, but I can't say that because I support the death penalty. I just don't think life should be ended just because they are suffering.

Wayfarer · 11-15-2002, 08:09 PM

I am extremely pro choice.

I support the choice to abstain from sexual intercourse.
I support the choice to use a condom.
I support the choice to use a cervical cap .
I support the choice to use a contraceptive sponge.
I support the choice to use a diaphrahm
I support the choice to use a hormone injection
I support the choice to use a hormone implant
I support the choice to use an intrauterine device
I support the choice to use a spermicide
I support the choice to undergo surgical sterilization
I support the choice to prevent impregnation by any other means.

But what I do not, will not, and cannot support is the choice to terminate a pregnancy which results because the parents weren't responsible enough to choose one of the above.

Do you?

emplynx · 11-15-2002, 10:05 PM

No!! Thanks for joining the conversation Wayfarer. I can with this one!!

Coney · 11-15-2002, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayfarer
But what I do not, will not, and cannot support is the choice to terminate a pregnancy which results because the parents weren't responsible enough to choose one of the above.

Why?

Wayfarer · 11-15-2002, 10:50 PM

Let's think about that for a moment, shall we?

A woman is stupid* enough to get pregnant when she doesn't want a baby- but it's ok, we'll ease up on teh consequence by killing the baby. Does that make sense to you?

A woman who doesn't want a baby has the recourse of a whole array of contraceptives. And yet she doesn't use them, and she gets pregnant. But, not willing to accept the consequences of her actions, she goes and kills the baby.

Perhaps you'd understand it if I put it this way: I'm going to replace 'use contraceptives' with 'get an abortion', 'get pregnant' with 'give birth', and 'kill the baby' with 'kill the baby'.

A woman who doesn't want a baby has the recourse of getting an abortion. And yet she doesn't have one, and she gives birth. But, not willing to accept the consequences of her actions, she goes and kills the baby.

Do YOU agree with her decision?

Forgive me, but I believe people should take responsibility for thier actions, even when they don't like the consequences .

*Rape, etc, are special cases, I still don't support abortion, but I felt I need to clarify my use of the word 'stupid'.

Coney · 11-15-2002, 10:59 PM

Read my earlier posts.........there are many occasions when a woman feels/has no choice other than abortion.

Do you (or others in this thread) disagree with this?

I agree with that many cases of abortion should never arise...if you don't want to become pregnant there are many ways to prevent it.......but what if a person does not live in a country where contreception is not readily available? should they also be subject to the decision that abortion is wrong?

Coney · 11-15-2002, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayfarer
A woman who doesn't want a baby has the recourse of getting an abortion. And yet she doesn't have one, and she gives birth. But, not willing to accept the consequences of her actions, she goes and kills the baby.

Do YOU agree with her decision?

The scenario you deliver enforces why I believe that a woman has the right to abort a pregnancy without the stigma and prejudice that many feel and yet still they thrust upon her, maybe then she would have felt more comfortable/secure in having an abortion. Abortion is legal and a personal decision. Who can tell an individual what they should or should not do?.

Wayfarer · 11-15-2002, 11:17 PM

Examine that last question:

What are the chances that a woman with access to clinical abortion wouldn't also have access to at least one method of contraception?

And why oh why would a doctor who performs abortions not make every effort to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place?

As to your assertion-There is always a choice. I agree with you that the prospects of life can be bleak... but I'd like you to consider: If killing the baby so that it doesn't have to live in those circumstances is ok, what do you think about killing the mother so she doesn't have to live in those circumstances?

Coney · 11-15-2002, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayfarer
What are the chances that a woman with access to clinical abortion wouldn't also have access to at least one method of contraception?

And why oh why would a doctor who performs abortions not make every effort to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place?

As to your assertion-There is always a choice. I agree with you that the prospects of life can be bleak... but I'd like you to consider: If killing the baby so that it doesn't have to live in those circumstances is ok, what do you think about killing the mother so she doesn't have to live in those circumstances?

There are millions of people who have access to a Doctor who can perform surgery but their government does not justify the importation of latex/chemical contraception.

Kill a mother? Why would anyone wish to kill a perfectly healthy human being?

emplynx · 11-15-2002, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Coney
Why would anyone wish to kill a perfectly healthy human being?

An excellent question! Why would anyone want to kill a perfectly healthy human being, large or small, born or unborn!!

emplynx · 11-15-2002, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Coney
Who can tell an individual what they should or should not do?.

State and Federal Government

Coney · 11-15-2002, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emplynx
An excellent question! Why would anyone want to kill a perfectly healthy human being, large or small, born or unborn!!

Hmm it is I define a human being as an person who is capable of independent thought, action and motivation.

What do you think of as a human being?

11-15-2002, 07:46 AM	#65
Laurelyn Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor, right next to Telperion . . . what did you expect, Michigan? Posts: 1,315	To Draken: ZZZZZT ;D __________________ The Third Age of Entmoot has begun. Angel of music, guide and guardian! Grant to me your glory! The country I eat and spend the day in is by no means the country I sleep and dream in. Define patriotism. Hold the boat, you spastic monkey! ~ Elenka

11-15-2002, 12:26 PM	#68
Hasty Ent Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 516	I agree with you 100%, jersey devil. I've seen terminally ill people lose all dignity towards the end, and have informed my family that this is not how I want to go. __________________ Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

11-15-2002, 08:09 PM	#70
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	I am extremely pro choice. I support the choice to abstain from sexual intercourse. I support the choice to use a condom. I support the choice to use a cervical cap . I support the choice to use a contraceptive sponge. I support the choice to use a diaphrahm I support the choice to use a hormone injection I support the choice to use a hormone implant I support the choice to use an intrauterine device I support the choice to use a spermicide I support the choice to undergo surgical sterilization I support the choice to prevent impregnation by any other means. But what I do not, will not, and cannot support is the choice to terminate a pregnancy which results because the parents weren't responsible enough to choose one of the above. Do you? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

11-15-2002, 10:50 PM	#73
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Let's think about that for a moment, shall we? A woman is stupid* enough to get pregnant when she doesn't want a baby- but it's ok, we'll ease up on teh consequence by killing the baby. Does that make sense to you? A woman who doesn't want a baby has the recourse of a whole array of contraceptives. And yet she doesn't use them, and she gets pregnant. But, not willing to accept the consequences of her actions, she goes and kills the baby. Perhaps you'd understand it if I put it this way: I'm going to replace 'use contraceptives' with 'get an abortion', 'get pregnant' with 'give birth', and 'kill the baby' with 'kill the baby'. A woman who doesn't want a baby has the recourse of getting an abortion. And yet she doesn't have one, and she gives birth. But, not willing to accept the consequences of her actions, she goes and kills the baby. Do YOU agree with her decision? Forgive me, but I believe people should take responsibility for thier actions, even when they don't like the consequences . *Rape, etc, are special cases, I still don't support abortion, but I felt I need to clarify my use of the word 'stupid'. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

11-15-2002, 10:59 PM	#74
Coney The Buddy Rabbit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Trapped in the headlights.. Posts: 3,372	Read my earlier posts.........there are many occasions when a woman feels/has no choice other than abortion. Do you (or others in this thread) disagree with this? I agree with that many cases of abortion should never arise...if you don't want to become pregnant there are many ways to prevent it.......but what if a person does not live in a country where contreception is not readily available? should they also be subject to the decision that abortion is wrong? __________________ Blessed are the cracked, they let the light in Beatallica

11-15-2002, 10:05 PM	#71
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	No!! Thanks for joining the conversation Wayfarer. I can with this one!!

11-15-2002, 11:17 PM	#76
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Examine that last question: What are the chances that a woman with access to clinical abortion wouldn't also have access to at least one method of contraception? And why oh why would a doctor who performs abortions not make every effort to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place? As to your assertion-There is always a choice. I agree with you that the prospects of life can be bleak... but I'd like you to consider: If killing the baby so that it doesn't have to live in those circumstances is ok, what do you think about killing the mother so she doesn't have to live in those circumstances? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned