Illuvatar

[azalea]

Perhaps BoP means that instead of a set series of events (a line), it is more like an infinite number of rays originating in a single point, each one representing a possible outcome, and to reach any one of these outcomes a different set of events would need to happen.

Going back to the rock, I still am not convinced that time exists outside of the human (or elvish) mind. It is not TIME that causes it to change, but, again, a series of INTERACTIONS (wind, weather) that causes the erosion. If those elements did not exist, would the rock still erode (it's physical nature notwithstanding)?

[azalea]

No, wait, I don't like the rays either.

Here it is. Time (assuming it exists) is PLANAR rather than linear.
an infinite number of possible outcomes exists based on which direction is taken from any given point (that is, what specific events occur) This is of course also assuming that INFINITY exists

[Wulažg]

Assuming that infinity exists is questionable at best. Infinity does not exist, it is a concept that for some is very difficult. If you are trying to say that the "infinity" you are talking about is an end goal, then there are an infinite number of endpoints. Unless the plane is on a diagonal so that there is only one endpoint. Or better yet (mathmatically) it edges on an imaginary plane so that there are a limited(finite) number or outcomes that truly exist no matter how many appear.

[Dwarven Sen]

OK, I believe in the infinite, just as I believe in oblivion, eternity, the force, and flying pigs. Leave the infinite alone!!! At the moment we are doing quantum mechanics and they said that they wanted there to be one all powerful force(Which there is), and that particles live forever. How can they live forever if there is no forever??????

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by azalea
No, wait, I don't like the rays either.

Here it is. Time (assuming it exists) is PLANAR rather than linear.
an infinite number of possible outcomes exists based on which direction is taken from any given point (that is, what specific events occur) This is of course also assuming that INFINITY exists

I was merely pointing out how, when mapping particles, they tend to form both waves, and particles. How is this possible? Does it pertain to particles existing, as you say, in a planar existence, in which we impinge our linear perceptions onto this relationship? That is all.

[Dwarven Sen]

planar is different to linear however. Particles and energy waves are interchangable, only as long as the physics rules are bent, not broken.

[azalea]

Actually I was using "planar" as a metaphor rather than a mathematical or actual physical model.

[Tulkas2002]

We cannot say that particles last forever. we could only guess at best. the only way to say with certainty is by observation and we cannot do that due to our mortality.

[Blackheart]

Particles don't last forever. That's already been calculated.

They do last a very long time however....

[Blackheart]

Also Also, time isn't a strictly linear axis in this reality either.

It's a manifestation of a 5th dimensional entity intruding into 4 space. (As is most of the universe including matter/energy/space/time - all pretty much the same thing in one form or another)

With the addition of n dimensional frames of reference, time can exhibit loops, and even branches.

So if you are looking for a "real world" frame of reference for the timeless halls, an nspace is the likeliest answer.

[Wulažg]

Of course time is weird. It could only fit into a model if the world were perfect or if we had taken into account everything. We know that that isn't going to happen so we have to put extra dimensions in there. The question of the day is: What does n equal? Is it partially imaginary? Do we even need to get into complex numbers if n is high enough? Is n even finite? Are there limmits to the number of dimensions in the universe or does the next one up always affect the lower dimensions and so on?

[Blackheart]

42- no really.

bah, currently best esitmates are n=16 for our current reality, though it may have been higher in the remote past.

No one's gonna figure anything out about time until we get a working quantum theory of gravity anyway, so why bother -

N is good enough for for a description of the timeless halls.

[TomFoolOfATook]

This debate is probably giving God a headache

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by TomFoolOfATook
This debate is probably giving God a headache

I don't know about God, but the moderator has one.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by TomFoolOfATook
This debate is probably giving God a headache

Normally, I'd kick your butt for saying that, but since it's not the anti-theist thread, why don't you come over there so I can kick you?

Just to clarify earlier post (posted when I had a distinct lack of sleep)...

Particles are paradoxical, they exist in both point (a) and point (b), at the same time. This is the wave/particle duality effect. This suggests that the linear notion of time that we perceive (we are too big to perceive it in any other way, other than being linear)... is just that. A notion.

What would be incoherent is time running backwards (i.e. effect and cause)

Funny you should say that... All arguments are based on the good ol' cause and effect mechanism... and yet, it's beginning to look like the "cause" and "effect" are a little more complicated than that (ref wave/particle paradox)...

In other words, fate, or destiny? Is it necessary that someone determines these outcomes? But what does a particular sequence of events (a), as opposed to another, (b), have to do with time as a construct? Time applies to both (a) and (b).

It does. But, how? Time as perceived as linear, along with cause and effect are problematic, because particles are not subject to linear constraints.

Take the example of a cat in a gas chamber: if the cat has a conscious thought, it will trigger the machine to release the gas, and the cat will die. In one 'reality', the machine registers the "pings!" of neurons firing and gases the cat. In the other instance, the machine doesn't, and the cat lives. AT THE SAME TIME. If there is no force, no sense of development from cause and effect, then why? How is Time acting upon the perception of reality? *Bangs head against wall*

... *sigh* Offtopic again...

*Takes box and leaves*

[Wulažg]

Yes, particlesdo not have to move through time linearly, but then everything is different when you get to really small things. Anyway, how does a matrix of neurons give us a free will? Intelligence? How exactly does that work? If that matrix of neurons gives us a free will, then does that mean that lizards have a free will too?

[Blackheart]

Errr- there's really no such things as particles... sighs.

They're really just quanta packets - a probalistic estimate of where the enrgy concentration probably is...

That's why they seem to exist in more than one place at once.

But I can assure you non-causal events do happen- you live in the middle of one right now.

As for free will, it is a metaphysical concept that cannot be proven empirically, but you CAN roughly calculate the necessary range of options and the level of conciousness necessary to take advantage of it if it does exist.

[Earniel]

Ow, my poor aching head.....

[Wulažg]

So why are we talking about physics if all these metaphysical concepts cannot be proved with physical concepts?

[Arathorn]

...to reveal the physics dabblers of the moot, I guess.