Elven Kings

[Ñólendil]

I think we do enjoy the exchange as much as you do Elvellon. I know I do.

I agree with your second paragraph (first one after the 'personality' title), but I have a niggle. According to one source, the Annals of Aman (published in Morgoth's Ring, the writing is by no means entirely congruent with later ideas, but it's a great source nonetheless), Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë were the only Elves willing to go to Valinor. If Finwë and Elwë were not -- as I think they were not -- descended from the Second and Third Elves Tata and Enel, them going as ambassadors of the Quendi must have meant that they were very adventurous friends, with a strong desire to see the wide world, and perhaps they were also very ambitious. They must have gone through a drastic change with their going to Valinor and returning, and leading their peoples on to see the Light. They definitely met with ennoblement. Ingwë on the other hand, because of his name, I believe to be descended from, either in the next generation or the one after that, from the first Elf: Imin.

It is also notable, in relation to your post Elvellon, that Morgoth greatly feared Thingol and Melian.

But why must we assume Thingol knew Finrod would give his life for Beren at all? Is it not possible that Thingol never fully realized the full meaning of the giving of Finrod's Ring to Barahir? As far as we know he had not heard of the cold words Finrod told his sister in Nargothrond.

With regard to the Avari, perhaps you are assuming too much. According to the tale of the Fall of Man that Tolkien wrote, Morgoth met the Hildor long before any Elves did. Doubtless they did learn from the Avari in the Far East, perhaps those faithful to Eru and those others, but there's no record I know of dealing with a betrayal. Oh, Book of Lost Tales? I haven't read much of it. Maybe. Not against the Nandor then (who were not Avari). What we know of the Edain's relationship with the Nandor of Eriador certainly says enough for us to deduce there was no hostility between the two. Adanedhel has pointed out that Thingol or any Laegrim in his realm could not have met any of the Second Born.

Unless you want to adhere to the very new idea Tolkien came up with, in which the Sun and Moon existed from the beginning and Men awakened long before they did in the mythology we're familiar with. Tolkien's last word on Orcs (which I now know can be found in Morgoth's Ring) was that they were corrupted Men, but this depends on the very new idea.

Question: Do you think Beren would have succeeded if Luthien had not gone with him?

Definitely not. Lúthien was Beren's Sam Gamgee.

These are the passages dealing with the early days of Thingol and the Exiled Noldor, from Of the Return of the Noldor:

Now King Thingol welcomed not with a full heart the coming of so many princes in might out of the West, eager for new realms; and he would not open his kingdom, nor remove its girdle of enchantment, for wise with the wisdom of Melian he trusted not that the restraint of Morgoth would endure. Alone of the princes of the Noldor those of Finarfin's house were suffered to pass within the confines of Doriath; for they could claim close kinship with King Thingol himself, since their mother was Eärwen of Alqualondë, Olwë's daughter.

Angrod son of Finarfin was the first of the Exiles to come to Menegroth, as messenger of his brother Finrod, and he spoke long with the King, telling him of the deeds of the Noldor in the north, and of their numbers, and of the ordering of their force; but being true, and wisehearted, and thinking all griefs now forgiven, he spoke no word concerning the kinslaying, nor of the manner of the exile of the Noldor and the oath of Fëanor. King Thingol hearkened to the words of Angrod; and ere he went he said to him: 'Thus shall you speak for me to those that sent you. In Hithlum the Noldor have leave to dwell, and in the highlands of Dorthonion, and in the lands east of Doriath that are empty and wild; but elsewhere there are many of my people, and I would not have them restrained of their freedom, still less ousted from their homes. Beware therefore how you princes of the West bear yourselves; for I am the Lord of Beleriand, and all who seek to dwell there shall hear my word. Into Doriath none shall come to abide but only such as I call as guests, or who seek me in great need.'

So you see, the right of passage into Doriath being withheld from all but the kin of the King occurred initially, before Elu made any comment about 'guests'. But the initial feeling held on, so when he said 'guests' he was only really referring to his own kin. I imagine he used the word due to policy -- for political reasons. Angrod is bearing a message back to those that sent him, to the Princes of the Noldor, not only the children of Eärwen. It is well not to exclude and insult those whom you bid and wish, in some fashion, to acknowledge you as Lord of Beleriand. He probably did not intend to welcome the sons of Anairë or Nerdanel, but the wording leaves the option open to him.

On the other hand Angrod is said to be the messenger of Finrod here. Perhaps Thingol had Finrod's kin especially in mind, as he would in any case forbid anyone else to enter.

Maybe in time he would have, had he never learned of the Kinslaying. But that was inevitable, and Faenor's sons accomplished enough evil anyway for him to ban them from the land. Yet even Fingolfin's sons, although not bereft of Thingol's friendship, were not allowed within Doriath.

Good point. I agree. Anyway you and Inoldonil already have solved the problem of the origin of Thingol's distrust for Men.

Have we? You mean the troubled dreams? That probably didn't help, but I think it's more than that. Thingol was definitely a racist -- for long. He probably regarded the Second Born as lowly and unworthy, not to mention perhaps unlovely. Their weakness I imagine he despised. At the heart of all racism there is fear. I don't doubt that Thingol was afraid in some way. Not only because of his ominous visions, but I think perhaps simply because they were different. Deep down, Elu Thingol was afraid.

Here I disagree. It is said elsewhere that small groups oh dark elves entered Beleriand secretly (HOME),I think there is no time restriction about it (But perhaps they were Avari, I don´t recall).

Yes, you can read about it in the very late writing of Quendi and Eldar, in War of the Jewels. They entered in from the south. They were in origin Tatyarin Avari, and so akin to the Noldor. But the Nandor are not Avari. Both are Dark Elves. Thingol in fact ruled Dark Elves. 'Dark Elves' in the reckoning of the Noldor in Aman, the Moriquendi, referred to all Elves who had not, or were descended from those who had not seen the Light of the Two Trees. Thingol was thus a Light Elf, but he ruled Dark Elves. Dark Elves including all Races of Sindar, Nandor and Avari. In any case the Avari who entered Beleriand never entered Doriath.

[adanedhel]

Have we? You mean the troubled dreams? That probably didn't help, but I think it's more than that. Thingol was definitely a racist -- for long. He probably regarded the Second Born as lowly and unworthy, not to mention perhaps unlovely. Their weakness I imagine he despised. At the heart of all racism there is fear. I don't doubt that Thingol was afraid in some way. Not only because of his ominous visions, but I think perhaps simply because they were different. Deep down, Elu Thingol was afraid.

While I agree that Thingol was a racist (as I mentioned before in referencing his final words to the dwarves), I don't agree that he distrusted men because he felt they were lowly, unworthy or unlovely. After all, he thought that way about the Dwarves and he allowed them into Doriath.

As for his being afraid, yes, but I still think it to be because of his dreams. I believe that he saw some great peril to come to Doriath because of men, and probably thought it fulfilled through Beren. If he thought he still had anything to fear from the Atani, he never would have taken in Turin as his foster son.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Here is another annoying aspect of Thingol concerning Men. The book says that he had these dreams and that none save Finrod consulted with him regarding the coming of Men and this displeased him. Well how in the world was anyone else suppose to consult him on these matters, when he allowed no one else to come into Doriath? I think this guy wants his lembus and eat it too.

[Elvellon]

Inoldonil, I finally got a little time to write back, so here it goes:

-About why Thingol denied entrance in Doriath to the Noldor at the very beginning

Here, of course we can devise several explanations; it could be that Thingol simply gave a “political” answer as you said, or, it could be that for a time, (thanks to the merit of Angrod perhaps), he actually considered to open his borders to visiting Noldor, (something that didn’t happened, but we must not forget that at least the Feanorians took Thingol’s words poorly, so it might not be entirely is fault).
Still, there is a problem has I see it; what was the nature of Thingol’s fear? I don’t accept the theory that he denied admittance in Doriath to the Noldor because he was a racist. As it is said in the Silmarillion he may have feared the Noldor’s greed for lands (and as we know, the desire for new lands to call as their own was one of the reasons for the return of the Noldor). Still, I ´m not entirely satisfied with this explanation either, he didn´t trust the Noldor, this is plain, but he overreact by not allowing visits but those of his kin .It might be, in the end, that Thingol may have had a vague premonition about the doom of Doriath, perhaps not knowing the nature of what was going to happen or how the Noldor were related with it, an irrational motive for an irrational action.

-Regarding the Nandor and the Avari:

Unfortunately I don’t have the time to give a full explanation just now, I just hope I will be able to give one later on.
Quote:
“…Unless you want to adhere to the very new idea Tolkien came up with, in which the Sun and Moon existed from the beginning and Men awakened long before they did in the mythology we're familiar with.”
No, I don’t mean the very last idea that Tolkien had about that (I still like more the ones he wrote before).

Quote:
“Not against the Nandor then (who were not Avari). What we know of the Edain's relationship with the Nandor of Eriador certainly says enough for us to deduce there was no hostility between the two. Adanedhel has pointed out that Thingol or any Laegrim in his realm could not have met any of the Second Born. “

Of course, but if any news came from such a betrayal of the Avari by Men in the East it would be but a vague rumour by the time it reached Eriador, and, if I am not mistaken the Edain took the Elves side since the very beginning. Anyway, what might be of relevance is that by the time the Edain came into Eriador many human tribes were already seduced by Evil. Did the Nandor of Eriador hear any word about it from their cousins further east? If they did they probably have heard only vague stories about it and word of the friendship of the Edain would also have reach them.
By the way, of course this is just speculation, but what happened back in Hildorien was never well explained in Tolkien’s later works, or at least I don’t remember it.

Quote:
“But the Nandor are not Avari. Both are Dark Elves. Thingol in fact ruled Dark Elves. 'Dark Elves' in the reckoning of the Noldor in Aman, the Moriquendi, referred to all Elves who had not, or were descended from those who had not seen the Light of the Two Trees. Thingol was thus a Light Elf, but he ruled Dark Elves. Dark Elves including all Races of Sindar, Nandor and Avari. “In any case the Avari who entered Beleriand never entered Doriath.”

I think you may believe I was confusing the Avari with the Nandor, not so.
Of course the Nandor are not Avari, the first were of the people of Dan and the later may have been, for the most part, kin of the Noldor (and not just those in Eriador but the majority of the Avari everywhere, if I recall it right).

Quote:
“In any case the Avari who entered Beleriand never entered Doriath.”

Are you sure about that? I can’t recall any such definitive statement. I guess I’ll have to read my books again, as soon as I find the time for it.
But don’t forget, Thingol’s realm were all of Beleriand, and I suppose many sindar outside Doriath still considered him as their high-king. It is natural that some of the nomad sindar hunters would eventually find some Avari and trade stories…


quote:
Question: Do you think Beren would have succeeded if Luthien had not gone with him?

“Definitely not. Lúthien was Beren's Sam Gamgee. “

Well, I think it might be that Beren was Luthien’s Sam.

[Ñólendil]

As for his being afraid, yes, but I still think it to be because of his dreams. I believe that he saw some great peril to come to Doriath because of men, and probably thought it fulfilled through Beren. If he thought he still had anything to fear from the Atani, he never would have taken in Turin as his foster son

Are you sure about that? This all seems to paint an ugly picture about Elu after the return of Beren, as though he had not changed. I believe that Thingol did change (I think you do too), whether he thought Beren the reason for his ominous visions or not, I think he still would have fostered Túrin.

Dan I think is the old form of the name. Later it was revealed to Tolkien that his name was actually Lenwë, or his name in Quenya histories anyway. I believe his Nandorin name was Denweg, or something alone those lines. I don't recall his Primitive Quendian name.

More of the Avari I think were Nelyar, akin to the Teleri (rather than Tatyar, akin to the Ñoldor).

Yes, I am sure the Avari never entered Doriath. They were secretive folk living in the southern forests, akin to the Ñoldor and hostile to them. I imagine if Thingol would only allow his own kin from other Races into his Guarded Realm, he certainly would not allow (he and Melian would not allow, it's very difficult to pass the Girdle) Avari in, who were not akin to him and had no Lindarin blood.

News might come to him, certainly, if these Avari were friendly, but they were not. And the Teleri did not come into contact with their Avarin kin until later Ages had come, long after the Ruin of Doriath. (The Silvan Elves of the Woodland Realm and the Galadhrim had mingled with Avari). Your only problem seems to be the lack of The War of the Jewels Quendi and Eldar is in there, which includes all this information about the Nandor and Avari.

[Finmandos12]

I agree with Inoldonil. I think that he did change, eventually. He

[adanedhel]

Are you sure about that? This all seems to paint an ugly picture about Elu after the return of Beren, as though he had not changed. I believe that Thingol did change (I think you do too), whether he thought Beren the reason for his ominous visions or not, I think he still would have fostered Túrin.

Upon further reflection, I agree that he would have fostered Turin no matter what. After he accepted Beren as his kin, Turin became a member of his extended family, and Thingol seemed to place much value on kinship. I do believe that he DID change after Beren, in his attitudes towards men at any rate. Witness his words regarding the Dragon Helm of Dor-Lomin, "Proud were the head that bore this helm, which the sires of Hurin bore."

Also, his actions after Hurin had thrown the Nauglamir at his feet, he was moved to pity, rather than anger.

I have also had reason to re-think my former reaction to Thingol's harsh words to the Dwarves when they withheld the Nauglamir from him. I said earlier that it was his pride that undid him in that moment. It seems obvious to me now that there were also two more powerful forces at work.

One was the fact that the Nauglamir was presented to him by Hurin, a man that he respected, in memory of Turin, a man that he loved, and the Silmaril that was now a part of the Nauglamir was hard won by Beren and Luthien.

Second, was that the Doom of the Noldor had come upon him, for .."Thingol's thought turned uncreasingly to the jewel of Feanor, and became bound to it, and he liked not to let it rest even behind the doors of his inmost treasury..."

His words to the Dwarves were my only problem with thinking that he had truly and totally changed. Now that I look at it in this light however, that he couldn't help himself because of his lust for the Silmaril, and his love for Beren, Luthien, and Turin, I beleive that he truly did change, but his doom was sealed the minute he even gave thought to possession of a Silmaril.

[Ñólendil]

Looked up Lenwë's Primitive Elvish name: turns out it wasn't Primitive Quendian at all, but Common Eldarin (the language the Eldar developed during the Great Journey and ancestor of all Eldarin languages). It was Denwego.

It may be noted there is no narrative written by JRR Tolkien dealing with Thingol and the Dwarves when Middle-earth existed. We only know he 'quarreled with the Dwarves'. He was either lured out of Doriath, or induced to go to war, and was slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departed, the Girdle was lifted and the Dwarves ravaged Doriath. Of The Ruin of Doriath seems to be the chapter Christopher Tolkien regrets most. He sort of went beyond his role as 'editor'.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yes, even I agree that Thingol changed after Beren. He was much more accepting of Men, and his fostering of Turin reflects how great this change was.

[adanedhel]

It may be noted there is no narrative written by JRR Tolkien dealing with Thingol and the Dwarves when Middle-earth existed. We only know he 'quarreled with the Dwarves'. He was either lured out of Doriath, or induced to go to war, and was slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departed, the Girdle was lifted and the Dwarves ravaged Doriath. Of The Ruin of Doriath seems to be the chapter Christopher Tolkien regrets most. He sort of went beyond his role as 'editor'.

I know, I know, I get that all of the time when I quote from "The Ruin of Doriath". That is why I rarely quote from the Silmarillion outside of a discussion about the book itself.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by adanedhel

I know, I know, I get that all of the time when I quote from "The Ruin of Doriath". That is why I rarely quote from the Silmarillion outside of a discussion about the book itself.

I am more inclined to stick to the account in the Silmarillion because it was what I read first. There were no HoMe then. Also it is what I am most familiar with since I have not had the opportunity to read the accounts in the HoMe aside from Morgoth's Ring, and in that I have only read the Athrabeth in full.

[adanedhel]

I know, for a long time the Silmarillion was all I had to go on about the First Age. It is very hard for me to go against what was written there. It would be like someone telling me 'much of what you think you know about the Roman Empire is wrong...but here are some other books which contradict what you know...'

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by adanedhel
I know, for a long time the Silmarillion was all I had to go on about the First Age. It is very hard for me to go against what was written there. It would be like someone telling me 'much of what you think you know about the Roman Empire is wrong...but here are some other books which contradict what you know...'

The problem with this particuliar mythology is that the Silmarillion was edited by the son of the author after his death unfortunately. He supposedly did a bit more then edit. He endeavored to be accurrate by going off of eledgeable notes and perhaps personal interpretations from a incomplete manuscript. However It was done sincerly and was well arranged. So it was a complete novel. For the reader at that time it was acceptable. I am not so sure that the HoMo and essays and notes published after, have not caused more harm then good. But if these accounts are the way Tolkien J.R.R. meant it to be, then this is the way it is. Afterall, this creation is from his imagination. We therefore have to accept that. But, until I can aquaint myself further with these changes, then I accept what I know, and that is the Silmarillion.

[adanedhel]

I'm not sure if you misunderstood what I was saying but it appears we sort of agree. I understand what CT was trying to accomplish with the Silmarillion, and I think it was well done. What I was saying is that I wish that when I first read the Silmarillion years ago, that I would have known that he had embellished so much on his father's ideas. When I said that it was "hard for me to go against what was written there", I didn't mean that I accept it as JRRT's vision, but that it is hard for me to not have it be the first thing that pops in my mind when I discuss the First Age.

As for HoME doing more harm than good though, I disagree, without it there would be much less to argue about?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by adanedhel
I'm not sure if you misunderstood what I was saying but it appears we sort of agree. I understand what CT was trying to accomplish with the Silmarillion, and I think it was well done. What I was saying is that I wish that when I first read the Silmarillion years ago, that I would have known that he had embellished so much on his father's ideas. When I said that it was "hard for me to go against what was written there", I didn't mean that I accept it as JRRT's vision, but that it is hard for me to not have it be the first thing that pops in my mind when I discuss the First Age.

As for HoME doing more harm than good though, I disagree, without it there would be much less to argue about?

True, there would be much less to argue about. I can't argue about other accounts that I am not familiar with though. The HoMe is not an easy thing to get your hands on, or I would have read it by now. I should have said that by it being published made it more confusing for people like me that have not had that exposure than to say it did more harm then good. Bad choice of words. Sorry.

[adanedhel]

Don't be sorry, I was j/k.

[Ñólendil]

I know, I know, I get that all of the time when I quote from "The Ruin of Doriath". That is why I rarely quote from the Silmarillion outside of a discussion about the book itself.

I see. You know, I think I'm guilty of not reading that chapter in a long time. I should, so I know what story most people are talking about.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I told all my family, nobody cared. I told all my friends, nobody cared. Now I'm telling you guys, and I know you'll care. Today, I went out and bought: "The Lost Road and Other Writings" and "The Book of Lost Tales 2." So, I'm getting there.

[Ñólendil]

You must read the Lost Road! (that is, the actual text called The Lost Road inside The Lost Road and Other Writings). Of all Tolkien's writings, it is the most dear to me. Of course you are free to trash it when you are finished, but I hope you get a chance to read it all the same

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
You must read the Lost Road! (that is, the actual text called The Lost Road inside The Lost Road and Other Writings). Of all Tolkien's writings, it is the most dear to me. Of course you are free to trash it when you are finished, but I hope you get a chance to read it all the same

Thank you Inoldonil. I also have Morgoth's Ring on order, so I will be good and armed for our next debate hopefully.