Divorce

[Tessar]

I can't put it more politely than Hector did, so I wont try. Just stop complaining and debate already.

This thread will do well enough. Or if enough people prefer, you can all move to the ancient thread. I really don't mind either way. I'm sure we have countless duplicate threads, and it has rarely been an issue to start a new one.

Entmoot is here to bring out the best in us and help us relax--lets all try to remember that. If you cannot debate politely and calmly, then I'm going to start asking you to take a break. I have received far too many PMs this week about the political threads, and frankly that tells me there's a problem with the way you have all chosen to 'run' them. So please, fix the problem.

[rohirrim TR]

My uncle got divorced a couple years ago after being married twenty years, I don't know if it was good or bad for them as individuals, but I found it to be very sad for me personally since it put fissures between my family and my aunt (or ex-aunt however that works) and since of course my aunt (or ex-aunt) kept custody of my cousins it pretty much broke off my relationship with them. IMO it sucked because I always liked my cousins on that side of the family.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

My uncle got divorced a couple years ago after being married twenty years, I don't know if it was good or bad for them as individuals, but I found it to be very sad for me personally since it put fissures between my family and my aunt (or ex-aunt however that works) and since of course my aunt (or ex-aunt) kept custody of my cousins it pretty much broke off my relationship with them. IMO it sucked because I always liked my cousins on that side of the family.

That happened to me, too. I saw my cousins only Thanksgiving OR Christmas, ykwim?

But I have to say, I think my uncle is as good a grandfather as most, so whatever stresses they had along the way seem to be kind of caught up, at least on the kinds of occassions where I see extended family, now. No scenes at the weddings, or anything.

[Earniel]

As two threads about divorce are active at the same time I have merged them. I only read about the argument later. I understand people wanting to limit the discussion to the certain viewpoints they'd like to discuss, but everyone on Entmoot has as much right to discuss topics and two threads about the same topic is rather redundant.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

My point would be that they aren't about the same topic.

[brownjenkins]

Yeah, the titles were the same, but while this one is about divorce in general, sis's should have been titled "personal experiences involving divorce".

[Tessar]

Well, no sense crying over merged milk .

We can quite easily debate both things in this thread from now on. In my opinion, it's a small enough divergence in the topic that it's not a huge deal.

[Jonathan]

Tessar has spoken, end of discussion

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

In every case I've seen, the relationship break-down, and in two cases the divorce itself, caused a great deal of pain. The fruit of this practice is very, very bitter indeed.

Here is a severe problem. I doubt that you and I would interpret the data the same way. If I saw the evidence of the same divorces as you, Lotesse, brownjenkins or other liberals have seen, I don't think I'd come to the same conclusions. By the same token, you probably wouldn't come to the same conclusions as I did regarding the marriage break-downs I've witnessed, if you saw them. I highly doubt that it's coincidence that you've seen all the good divorces and I've seen all the ugly ones.

I'm not sure I understand how this relates to my post. What data? What evidence? What conclusions?

As I said, I know several divorced people. Some of them have suffered more than others, there's been varying degress of pain or lack of pain. However I think if these people had stayed in their relationships and not divorced, that would have caused more pain for them and their families over time. So in my opinion, these divorces have generally been good since they've prevented bitter and self-destructive relationships from persisting. Isn't this the main reason why people divorce at all?

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

[...] you should be criticizing Jonathan and Lotess's posts. All of them explained some of the reasons why they believe what they do.

No I didn't? Not until this very post


A religious person on another board posted that people who divorce their spouses "may lose their future places in Heaven". If one believes this is the case, then one also has to believe that every divorce is inherently bad. Needless to say, this is not my view

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Well, no sense crying over merged milk

No crying here, just pointing out small, yet significant, intended difference.

I never stay on topic anyway.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

A religious person on another board posted that people who divorce their spouses "may lose their future places in Heaven".

On the bright side, it makes more room for those who actually want to be there.

[Lief Erikson]

brownjenkins, sisterandcousinandaunt, Gwaimir and any others, just ignore studies that I produce and go ahead and talk only about personal experience, if that's what you want to do.

Originally Posted by Jonathan

I'm not sure I understand how this relates to my post. What data? What evidence? What conclusions?

The "evidence" I was referring to was your observations of the events of the divorces and the relationship collapses. The "conclusions" were the conclusions some here make that divorce is often a good thing, and my conclusion that it is very rarely good. The "data" was also the observations of these divorces, so it was basically the same as the "evidence". I was just using those words because I'm used to them .

But you know, those really are forms of evidence from which one comes to a conclusion. You witness a divorce and perhaps the lead-in, and then based on the "evidence" of what you see, you come to a conclusion about divorce in general. It's inductive reasoning.

But that's all just semantics, and so not very important to anything .

Originally Posted by Jonathan

As I said, I know several divorced people. Some of them have suffered more than others, there's been varying degress of pain or lack of pain. However I think if these people had stayed in their relationships and not divorced, that would have caused more pain for them and their families over time. So in my opinion, these divorces have generally been good since they've prevented bitter and self-destructive relationships from persisting. Isn't this the main reason why people divorce at all?

But then, I heard a psychologist argue that whenever both marital partners were actually willing to give up something to heal the relationship, he'd had a 100% success rate. Divorce is often the selfish way to end the pain. There are very frequently far better ways, for everyone involved.

I can try to get you his name, if you want. I bet I could find it fairly easily.

Here's a confirming source for that:

Originally Posted by The Marriage Lifeline

To date, the program has a success rate of 88% in taking marriages from a miserable state and transforming them, giving the couple hope, the skills to communicate without fighting and the possibility of real happiness together. The 12% of couples whose marriages are not turned around by the Marriage Lifeline are those who do not complete the program or those who refuse to practice the skills they learned through it.

http://www.stopyourdivorcein4weeks.com/FAQ.html

Originally Posted by Jonathan

No I didn't? Not until this very post

I was referring to your post #47.

Originally Posted by Jonathan

I know several divorced people. For most of them and their families the divorces have been a good thing in general.

The personal experience you cited here of knowing several divorced people is a reason why you believe what you do. Though you didn't go into detail.

Originally Posted by Jonathan

A religious person on another board posted that people who divorce their spouses "may lose their future places in Heaven". If one believes this is the case, then one also has to believe that every divorce is inherently bad. Needless to say, this is not my view

That person said "may". That's an important word.

Jesus said that it was acceptable for people to divorce because of the spouse being unfaithful in marriage. That's probably a key reason for the qualifier this religious person used.

In a different passage where Jesus was speaking more generally, he didn't mention that qualifier. Therefore we can know that while Jesus thought of divorce as generally a sin, he did think that in certain circumstances, it was acceptable in God's eyes. You can see that also in the Old Testament, when God refers to Israel as an adulterous maiden and punishes her severely as a consequence of her "sexual" immorality. Note that in many of those cases, sexual immorality was imagery for idolatry.

I do think, and Jesus' general opposition to divorce seems to confirm, that there are only rarely sufficiently valid reasons for people to enter into divorce. The psychologist (who is a marriage counselor) seems to confirm that too, with his experience of all marriages he encountered being solvable if the partners were willing to give something up to keep the relationship alive. That giving something up was the evidence that they actually wanted to fix the relationship. If they weren't willing to give anything up, that showed that they didn't want to fix the relationship at all, however much they might say they did, and so the problem was with them personally. That's a selfishness issue.

I agree with the statement you've quoted from that religious person from the other board, though I don't agree with you, when you say that if it's true, all divorces are inherently bad . Sometimes divorces can indeed be the best option, IMO.

I think my perception of heaven might be somewhat different from the view of heaven that that other person has, in that he/she seems to view heaven only as a place that we'll go to rather than as a place many people alive on Earth today already are in, but that's completely irrelevant and off-topic .

[The last sane person]

Okay, statistics and polls and surveys aside....

My parents were both married and 'divorced' before they met one another. My father was married to an American woman that used him then abused him ( Funny, you never think of female abusers in a relationship, but it really hurt my dad), and I have a sister from my dad by that marriage. She is nice enough.

My mother...well, back home it would be classified as a divorce, but the deal is her husband was murdered, so that was how her first marriage got terminated. I have a brother from my mom's previous marriage.

In all, I cant say what would have happened if my mother's first husband wasnt killed...aside from the fact I might not be here today. But I can say that my father's divorce was very good for him. It hurt him, yeah, at first, but if divorce wasnt an option and he had to stay with that woman would have either killed him or he woulda killed her.

So I kinda am in favor of divorce really. ****, lets look at WHY people divorce. And screw the polls, do you know the reasons why the couples you know who divorced split up? Generally, its because they were young and stupid, and got caught up in some head trip, and didn't see who it was the were really commiting to.

Then they said the vows and somehow they opened their eyes and realized, that perhaps, that person wasnt really the one for em. Sometimes it turns ugly, but sometimes they split up before it ends up like that.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by The last sane person

So I kinda am in favor of divorce really. ****, lets look at WHY people divorce. And screw the polls, do you know the reasons why the couples you know who divorced split up? Generally, its because they were young and stupid, and got caught up in some head trip, and didn't see who it was the were really commiting to.

Then they said the vows and somehow they opened their eyes and realized, that perhaps, that person wasnt really the one for em. Sometimes it turns ugly, but sometimes they split up before it ends up like that.

Marriage takes work, according to what I've been told by everyone I know who has experienced it. Initially, there's a rush of feelings that pushes people forward and can sometimes cause what you rightfully call a "head trip." That rush of feelings will fade, as you rightly say, but that doesn't mean the marriage can't still work and it doesn't mean that love can't return.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by The last sane person

Okay, statistics and polls and surveys aside....

My parents were both married and 'divorced' before they met one another. My father was married to an American woman that used him then abused him ( Funny, you never think of female abusers in a relationship, but it really hurt my dad), and I have a sister from my dad by that marriage. She is nice enough.

My mother...well, back home it would be classified as a divorce, but the deal is her husband was murdered, so that was how her first marriage got terminated. I have a brother from my mom's previous marriage.

In all, I cant say what would have happened if my mother's first husband wasnt killed...aside from the fact I might not be here today. But I can say that my father's divorce was very good for him. It hurt him, yeah, at first, but if divorce wasnt an option and he had to stay with that woman would have either killed him or he woulda killed her.

So I kinda am in favor of divorce really. ****, lets look at WHY people divorce. And screw the polls, do you know the reasons why the couples you know who divorced split up? Generally, its because they were young and stupid, and got caught up in some head trip, and didn't see who it was the were really commiting to.

Then they said the vows and somehow they opened their eyes and realized, that perhaps, that person wasnt really the one for em. Sometimes it turns ugly, but sometimes they split up before it ends up like that.

A number of people I know have been divorced. Some of my favorite people are in this one family where a widow with one kid married a divorced man and they had 4 more. His first wife didn't like kids, but clearly he did, lol. And, like your example, at 22, or whatever, he wasn't thinking "How will I feel about having children at 45? " (or whatever, I don't know the exact ages.)

Without divorce, that family, like you, wouldn't even exist. When I think about the kids I know who were born in second or third marriages...well, it's actually quite a few. It's hard for me to believe it would be a better world without them, yk?

[The last sane person]

Lief, I'm not sure your "Patch up the relationship" sources are a cure all for people. People also seem to learn best by experience in what it takes to find a good mate.

Why use a **** load of plaster and bandaids to patch up something that really isnt working out, when next time you can simpley think it out and choose more wisely.

Case in point, my cousin and her husband. They are in their thirties now but Ben, my cousin's husband, married and had a kid when he was in his early twenties, and from what I gather, that was a right proper mess. Ben and his previous wife might have been able to plaster something together haphazardly, but it probably wouldnt have worked out so well.

It seems that this time around, he played it smart, and so did my cousin. (she was always pretty wise about this sort of stuff) The two now have a good strong marriage that isnt based on plaster-bandaide work but on a solid foundation to begin with, and they now have a two month old baby girl (heh, whom I've nicknamed 'hamsandwich').

And Ben's son from a previous marriage seems to really be benefitting from this new one too, he loves his new sister, seeing as he was pretty lonely, and with Ben and Mirah (cousin) he has a good base. He has a family now, with cousins and aunts and uncles and the whole nine yards (Me, my mother, father, uncles) that he didn't have before. It seems to have really worked out.

I also think that its best to start older, so you actually know somewhat of who you really are. Teeny bopper marriages dont work out at all, and I have lots of experience in that...Yeesh. Any relationship prior to 25 is meaningless, aside from being learning experiences and aside from as a lesson, are not to be taken seriously.

[Lief Erikson]

Sane, I just edited the part of my post referring to sources because I've heard people here not wanting to hear sources at all. There are a lot of sources I can show you, though, some of which are professional organizations. They know what they're doing and are good at bringing relationships together again in love, if the people involved actually are willing to try still to make it work. If they come in planning for a divorce and not actually wanting to save their marriages, then no amount of marriage counseling is going to help.

Originally Posted by The last sane person

Lief, I'm not sure your "Patch up the relationship" sources are a cure all for people. People also seem to learn best by experience in what it takes to find a good mate.

Why use a **** load of plaster and bandaids to patch up something that really isnt working out, when next time you can simpley think it out and choose more wisely.

Break-ups aren't usually easy, smooth or painless. Often at least one person is hurt. But also the kind of mentality that accepts failure in a relationship I just have problems with. It seems to take relationships too lightly, IMO, and if one feels that one can drop a relationship if it really isn't working out, then the same person might do the same thing again. I think the person is more likely to lay aside future relationships too. He or she might choose more wisely the second time, but if problems arise as they often do, the person might drop that too, since dropping the relationship is an option. It's a cop-out, a way of escaping problems that doesn't really solve them, because the person who involves him or herself in it might very easily do the same thing again.

Originally Posted by The last sane person

Case in point, my cousin and her husband. They are in their thirties now but Ben, my cousin's husband, married and had a kid when he was in his early twenties, and from what I gather, that was a right proper mess. Ben and his previous wife might have been able to plaster something together haphazardly, but it probably wouldnt have worked out so well.

It seems that this time around, he played it smart, and so did my cousin. (she was always pretty wise about this sort of stuff) The two now have a good strong marriage that isnt based on plaster-bandaide work but on a solid foundation to begin with, and they now have a two month old baby girl (heh, whom I've nicknamed 'hamsandwich').

And Ben's son from a previous marriage seems to really be benefitting from this new one too, he loves his new sister, seeing as he was pretty lonely, and with Ben and Mirah (cousin) he has a good base. He has a family now, with cousins and aunts and uncles and the whole nine yards (Me, my mother, father, uncles) that he didn't have before. It seems to have really worked out.

I don't know the situation well enough myself to have an opinion on it.

I also think that its best to start older, so you actually know somewhat of who you really are. Teeny bopper marriages dont work out at all, and I have lots of experience in that...Yeesh. Any relationship prior to 25 is meaningless, aside from being learning experiences and aside from as a lesson, are not to be taken seriously.

I agree that it's best to start relationships when one is older. And to be very careful is best too, IMO. Early relationships, though, I think can be restored and the couples can gain a genuine respect and love for one another that they may not have had in the beginning. It all takes work.

[Jonathan]

Wow Lief, you certainly dissected my post thoroughly

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

But then, I heard a psychologist argue that whenever both marital partners were actually willing to give up something to heal the relationship, he'd had a 100% success rate. Divorce is often the selfish way to end the pain. There are very frequently far better ways, for everyone involved.

I can try to get you his name, if you want. I bet I could find it fairly easily.

Oh, I don't doubt that couples can heal their relationship if both of them do their best. But I don't think healing a relationship is always the best thing to do. Moving on, taking separate ways might be just as good. I don't think marriage is "sacred" and thus something that is always worth fighting for.

[The last sane person]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

. I don't think marriage is "sacred" and thus something that is always worth fighting for.

See, that is the sore spot. Some people do, and base their arguments as such. On a personal note, I dont think its sacred either. To be respected if it happens, yes. A wonderful thing, if its true, oh yes. Sacred, however, no.

[brownjenkins]

If people didn't get married, the divorce rate would be 0%.

But seriously, that's the biggest cause of the problem. It's so incredibly easy to get married, and incredibly easy to have children, and incredibly hard to imagine the kind of person you will be for the next 50-80 years of your life.

That's why I gave my own example earlier. The key with relationships, and with children, is that you are a caring person. If divorce is what two people really want, it can be done in a respective and positive way that can end up better for all the people involved.

And that same goes for marriage as well. I know many couples, especially from my father's generation and older, where the parents were about as far apart as two people can be, eventhough they were "married". For the father, it was all about work, hanging with friends, doing guy stuff, and maybe the token hour or two with the kids every week. And for the mother, it was running the household. This kind of couple would come up in the "happily married" statistic any day of the week, but the truth was far from it, but they fall far short of the caring aspect.

The key, I believe, is to encourage people to be more honest with themselves and others, and take their time about getting married. Certainly try not to have a baby, but if it happens, don't assume that a shotgun wedding is going to solve all your problems.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Break-ups aren't usually easy, smooth or painless. Often at least one person is hurt. But also the kind of mentality that accepts failure in a relationship I just have problems with. It seems to take relationships too lightly, IMO, and if one feels that one can drop a relationship if it really isn't working out, then the same person might do the same thing again. I think the person is more likely to lay aside future relationships too. He or she might choose more wisely the second time, but if problems arise as they often do, the person might drop that too, since dropping the relationship is an option. It's a cop-out, a way of escaping problems that doesn't really solve them, because the person who involves him or herself in it might very easily do the same thing again.

When dropping a relationship is an option, staying together is even more of an acheivement. If the lifelong contract you accepted when you got together as a couple is all that is holding you together, then you don't really have a relationship at all.

I prefer to think that my wife stays with me because she wants to, not because she is expected to.