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Old 09-23-2008, 08:15 AM   #61
Valandil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordis View Post
Well, I was speaking of Sauron, not of Morgoth. There is a huge difference between them in their ultimate goals - as emphasized by Tolkien himself.

Sauron, given the opportunity, would have become the ruler of ME, brooking no opposition, cruel, but also quite rational and even just. One thing can be said in his favour: he was tolerant to all peoples and races of ME (provided they didn't fight against him) and gave career opportunities even to orcs. Shagrat was in command of a huge fortress. Could you imagine a Dunlending (I am not even speaking of orcs) in command of a fortress in Arnor or Gondor?

What life would be like in the Westlands under Sauron? I guess in a way similar to the Shire under Sharkey - with much more order. There would be straight streets, orderly houses, new mills and all sort of machines. There would be medical care and maybe even child allowance. Everything would be regulated to the point of obsession. Everyone would get a personal number (remember how Sau numbered his orcs?) and a personal record. Bureaucrats would write long reports. Nobody who works would go hungry. Nobody who errs would remain unpunished.

No paradise surely, but bearable. Or is it?
No using extra firewood without an Extra Firewood Permit.

No serving extra food without an Extra Food Permit.

No visiting friends out of town without a Visiting Out of Town Permit.

All the inns closed.

Plenty of 'sharers' to help you share all your things with others so you're left with half what you had before, and have to ask them permission to do all the things you used to do of your own free will.

And... you have a problem with it, you go to jail. Or, maybe get eaten.
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Old 09-23-2008, 10:11 AM   #62
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Gandalf’s depiction of the results of a Sauronian victory are not very pleasant in FotR, “Shadow of the Past”:
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Frodo shuddered... ‘And why should [Sauron] want [hobbit] slaves?’

‘To tell you the truth,’ replied Gandalf, ‘I believe that hitherto – hitherto, mark you – he has entirely overlooked the existence of hobbits. ... He does not need you – he has many more useful servants – but he won’t forget you again. And hobbits as miserable slaves would please him far more than hobbits happy and free...’
Once in command, I doubt that Sauron would have cared whether his slaves lived or died, or starved. Consider our case in Núrnen, which Tolkien describes in RotK, “Land of Shadow”:
Quote:
Neither [Sam] nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields … by the dark sad waters of Lake Núrnen; nor of the great roads that ran away east and south to tributary lands, from which the soldiers of the Tower brought long wagon-trains of goods and booty and fresh slaves.
(No doubt one of the strategic importances of Khand to Mordor: as a source food, material, and especially of slave labor.)

Last edited by Alcuin : 09-23-2008 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 09-23-2008, 11:21 AM   #63
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All the inns closed.
Or maybe there would be Special Inn Permits for those who behave well? Stimulating one's subjects is important.


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And... you have a problem with it, you go to jail. Or, maybe get eaten.
Or, more likely, you become a slave to work those fields in Nurn.

We are not told how Sauron obtained his slaves. I strongly disagree that ALL his subjects were slaves. There had to be soldiers, bureaucrats, civil workers, artisans, and free peasants. The free ones were becoming rich under Sauron's rule. But he also had slaves, yes. Perhaps the slaves were not even prisoners of war, but convicts from Harad, Khand and Rhun. I totally see Sauron using labor camps for the "wrong-doers" or dissidents, much like it was done in XX century real-word. That was the sort of "progress" Sauron would invent along with personal numbers.
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Old 09-24-2008, 09:44 AM   #64
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In another way, though, Gordis, all Sauron's subjects were slaves in a sense. Any who rebelled or tried to forge their own independent course would certainly have been smacked down. If slavery is the opposite of freedom, then all Sauron's subjects were slaves because none of them were free.

Of course, freedom is relative, even in free societies.
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Old 09-24-2008, 02:20 PM   #65
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Weren't all Gondor subjects slaves in a sense as well? Any who rebelled were driven away to Umbar - at best.
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Old 09-24-2008, 02:44 PM   #66
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Weren't all Gondor subjects slaves in a sense as well? Any who rebelled were driven away to Umbar - at best.
I don’t think “political dissidents” were typically subjected to escheatment, servitude, and execution in Gondor. There seems to have been an exception to this rule during the 10-year reign of Castamir the Usurper during the fifteenth century of the Third Age; but the implication is that the folk of Gondor enjoyed considerable freedom of action that people under the rule of Sauron and his allies did not. In fact, that’s exactly what I cited from LotR in post 62.

Besides, how do you think I got exiled to Núrnen?
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Old 09-24-2008, 04:50 PM   #67
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I don’t think “political dissidents” were typically subjected to escheatment, servitude, and execution in Gondor. There seems to have been an exception to this rule during the 10-year reign of Castamir the Usurper during the fifteenth century of the Third Age;
Yes and later Eldacar took his revenge and everyone who was discontent with the reign of the half-blood had to flee.
Also there is this shady matter of Queen Beruthiel and her cats - wasn't she persecuted on religious grounds?

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In fact, that’s exactly what I cited from LotR in post 62.

Besides, how do you think I got exiled to Núrnen?
And how did you get exiled there? Must be a great place by the way!

If you mean your first quote from #62, don't forget that Gandalf referred to Sauron vengeance.
Quote:
...hobbits as miserable slaves would please him far more than hobbits happy and free. There is such a thing as malice and revenge.’
‘Revenge?’ said Frodo. ‘Revenge for what? I still don’t understand what all this has to do with Bilbo and myself, and our ring.’
‘It has everything to do with it,’
Sure, after meddling with the Ring the hobbits and Bagginses in particular would get harsher treatment from Sauron than normal. Maybe indeed they would become slaves in the full sense of the word.

As to your second quote: "the great slave-worked fields of Nurnen…" I see it this way. Mordor likely had very small native population of Men. This population was self-sufficient: they were able to feed themselves, but never to ensure the extensive production of crops for the army. I believe, once he settled in Mordor, Sauron simply imported slaves from tributary lands to work the fields of Nurn - and the products were used to feed all his orcs and soldiers.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:05 PM   #68
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Well, we definitely know what Ar-Pharazôn and Sauron did with dissidents, don’t we? They were sacrificed by Sauron in his profane temple on Númenor.
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