Was Hitler Christian,Athiest,Savior-Madman) FACTS welcomed along with your opinions

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

This fellow doesn't seem to be an overly reliable source. According to wikipedia:


Even he admits he was wrong.

O.K., point taken, but you do realise that he was and is a practising Catholic, right? And what he was saying must have really gotten the Vatican uncomfortable; I would not be at all surprised if the Vatican didn't lean heavily upon Cromwell to "take back" calling out Pope Pius XII's evil deeds. So he must have been pressured to "apologise" for revealing some ugly truths, and did so within the pages of a follow-up book.

I believe this person is a very valid source of historical truth & accuracy. What is not to believe? Look at the exhaustive piles of research that this person has, from literally years of careful searching and compilation? The truth is out there, people, if we are willing to open up our minds to it.


On "Hitler's Pope" -

Cornwell, a best-selling author and Vatican observer, said he was given access to secret church files because he had initially planned to defend the pope against charges he was silent about death camps. But after studying Pope Pius XII's own files and depositions taken under oath 30 years ago to support his eventual canonization, Cornwall said he was in a "state of moral shock."

Cornwall says that when the pope, Eugenio Pacelli, came to power in 1939, he knew about Hitler's plans for a "Final Solution" and was begged repeatedly by bishops in Germany, even by an emissary from President Franklin D. Roosevelt, to use his authority to condemn Nazi atrocities.

But he said nothing, and never acted to stop Catholic clergymen who collaborated in racial certification to identify Jews before they were sent to death camps.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

O.K., point taken, but you do realise that he was and is a practising Catholic, right? And what he was saying must have really gotten the Vatican uncomfortable; I would not be at all surprised if the Vatican didn't lean heavily upon Cromwell to "take back" calling out Pope Pius XII's evil deeds. So he must have been pressured to "apologise" for revealing some ugly truths, and did so within the pages of a follow-up book.

I have no idea if he's a practicing Catholic or not; all I know is he is an ex-seminarian, who tend to the be the creme de la creme of Catholic whackos. Ex-seminarians, ex-priests, ex-monks, and ex-nuns tend to have festering grudges.

So, you're just working on the assumption that the Vatican is a dressed-up Mafia, sending a couple of the boys to try to 'splain a few things to him?

I believe this person is a very valid source of historical truth & accuracy. What is not to believe? Look at the exhaustive piles of research that this person has, from literally years of careful searching and compilation? The truth is out there, people, if we are willing to open up our minds to it.

And your basis for believing this?

And what of the book written by a Jewish Rabbi, saying that it's all a load? Do you think the Rabbi is just licking the Pope's boots, or what?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

One point is that the only reports or journals most people will look at are those that do say they knew about the Holocaust. The others aren't interesting enough to be put in museums or other places you might normally look. It would be boring to most people to look at documents unrelated to the Holocaust, written by a population that didn't know about the Holocaust. So naturally you'll only find those people who did know have their accounts in the museums.

Historians are more thorough, however. They go through the boring as well as the interesting records.

Fine. Look at the evidence then:

January 1942: USSR sends a letter signed by its Foreign Minister Molotov, about terrible deeds done by Germans in the occupied lands of the Soviet Union.

July 1942: "Reigner telegram", a telegram from a German industrialist sends it to London and later it reaches the US. It says that the German plan is to take the Jews from all lands under Germany and exterminate them.

December 1942: An official public declaration of the Allies, about the Nazi crimes - starvation, mass-executions, etc...

I doubt most historians disagree with me. Yad Vashem states that "most of the population in Germany and occupied Europe was aware of the treatment to Jews" yet has done nothing.

The Allies knew exactly where Auschwitz is in 1944 when two prisioners of the camp escaped. They also took photos of Aschwitz and even saw the Jews taken into the Gas Chambers. (I can scan the photo if you wish, from the book)


About the Vatican - as far as I know it hasn't condemned the actions of Germany during the war. Condemning could probably save lives as most Polish for instance are Catholic, and many helped the Nazis to catch escaping or hiding Jews.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

There are crazies within both Islam and Christianity, who spout things like Kill the Infidel and (from the Christian right & Bush) kill the crazy muslim arabs. The Christian right is more sophisticated with the wording, so as not to blatantly be shown to be what their political & religious message actually is, (in ref. to the wars & etc.)but the message is the same, nonetheless, and it is drummed & pounded into the ears and minds of every American, every day, through the media. Righteous hatred from christians as well as muslims.

I'm a Christian conservative, fundamentalist Republican. I have not been presenting hatred for Muslims, and I greatly respect and like the only two Muslims of my acquaintance. President Bush also is nothing like what you say. Here are some of his words about Islam:

"Some of the comments that have been uttered about Islam do not reflect the sentiments of my government or the sentiments of most Americans. Islam, as practiced by the vast majority of people, is a peaceful religion, a religion that respects others."


"Islam is a vibrant faith. Millions of our fellow citizens are Muslim. We respect the faith. We honor its traditions. Our enemy does not. Our enemy doesn't follow the great traditions of Islam. They've hijacked a great religion."


"I have assured His Majesty that our war is against evil, not against Islam. There are thousands of Muslims who proudly call themselves Americans, and they know what I know -- that the Muslim faith is based upon peace and love and compassion. The exact opposite of the teachings of the al Qaeda organization, which is based upon evil and hate and destruction."


"Americans understand we fight not a religion; ours is not a campaign against the Muslim faith. Ours is a campaign against evil."


"The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them."






I personally disagree with President Bush about this, though I agree with him that Islam has brought much good in the world, and is a religion held by millions of people who live very good lives.

I haven't kept up much on what the Christian Right says, so I can't comment about them. As for myself though, I say love Muslims and befriend them. The idea that we should just randomly "kill Muslims," is pure evil.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I'm a Christian conservative, fundamentalist Republican. I have not been presenting hatred for Muslims,

Really? You haven't? Could have fooled me, but I never said that you were presenting hatred for Muslims. The hatred within a person speaks for itself, in the voice of intolerance and fear.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

The idea that we should just randomly "kill Muslims," is pure evil.

And so is the idea that we should forcibly convert them all to your brand of religion! That is pure evil, too.

[Spock]

Lief; it becomes easier once you realize that facts and truth are just not accepted by some.


At least no one here has said:

Kill 'em all and let God & Allah sort them out

YET.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

And so is the idea that we should forcibly convert them all to your brand of religion! That is pure evil, too.

I have never advocated forced conversion.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

January 1942: USSR sends a letter signed by its Foreign Minister Molotov, about terrible deeds done by Germans in the occupied lands of the Soviet Union.

July 1942: "Reigner telegram", a telegram from a German industrialist sends it to London and later it reaches the US. It says that the German plan is to take the Jews from all lands under Germany and exterminate them.

December 1942: An official public declaration of the Allies, about the Nazi crimes - starvation, mass-executions, etc...

The German people wouldn't have been likely to believe the Allies in December of 1942.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I doubt most historians disagree with me. Yad Vashem states that "most of the population in Germany and occupied Europe was aware of the treatment to Jews" yet has done nothing.

Wikipedia would say he's one of the minority of historians that has that viewpoint.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

About the Vatican - as far as I know it hasn't condemned the actions of Germany during the war. Condemning could probably save lives as most Polish for instance are Catholic, and many helped the Nazis to catch escaping or hiding Jews.

Condemning the Nazis would probably have resulted in extensive and bloody crackdowns on Catholics in Nazi occupied territories. As a matter of a fact . . .

Originally Posted by United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

After enduring anti-church actions for several years, in 1937 Pope Pius XI issued the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge (With Burning Concern). In the encyclical, Pius XI criticized Nazi philosophy and warned the German government to fulfill the terms of the Concordat. The Nazis responded with a wave of priest trials--prosecutions of clergy for various alleged infractions.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I have never advocated forced conversion.

What? Yes you did!! You very explicitly and at great length the other day explained how what needs to be done is to have the entire Nation of Islam "brought to Christianity," made to convert to Christianity and abandon their Islam. One of your many "my religion is better than theirs" posts.

Yes, it is sad how some people in general in this world keep their minds suffocated & narrow so as not to allow any room for truth or wisdom. Sad, sad, sad. Yes, perhaps for certain people "it becomes easier once you realize that facts and truth are just not accepted by some." I am not one of those people for whom "it becomes easier." That is just me. I feel that consistently and doggedly denying truth and reason in preference for religious ideology and politicism is part of the bane of the world's human race. Denying truth, peace and reason is horrendously and massively destructive. Religions like to deny truth, peace, and reason. So do political parties longing for power & wealth.

[Lief Erikson]

I have advocated speaking about our faith to those Muslims that are interested in exchanging ideas. I have NEVER advocated forced conversion. Brownjenkins and Insidious Rex misinterpreted me in this way, and I pointed out to them what I really meant.

[Lotesse]

And Radagast, and myself, and a few others also "misunderstood" you? Lief, you at great length and very clearly and explicitly outlined how what needs to be done is to bring all Muslims to Christ, and have them deny their own religion and convert. I'm not going to sit here and contiunue to argue with yuou about this; you were very clear about what you said. There was no room for misinterpretation.

[Spock]

Please Let Us Avoid Creation Of More Tension Than Is Necessary

Everyone Just Take A Few Deep Breaths Before Posting

[Rían]

Here's another angle -

If a person says they're a thespIAN, it would be natural to assume that they are either acting or attempting to be acting.

If a person says they're a ChristIAN, it would be natural to assume that they are either practicing Christian tenets, as outlined in the New Testament, or attemping to practice them.

Since some here believe that Hitler was a Christian, and for a very long time, too, it should be easy for them to bring up scads of facts about how Hitler practiced the basic tenets of the Christian faith, such as loving his enemies, giving to the poor, being sexually faithful in marriage, considering others as better than himself, purposefully doing good to others, being truthful, etc.

I look forward to seeing what people come up with!

And I"ll repeat again, since Spock mentioned it on the other thread:

The only instance I've seen of Hitler supporting his atrocities with a verse in the New Testament is when he mentions the verse about Jesus chasing the Jewish moneychangers and sellers of sacrificial animals out of the temple. Hitler apparently takes that verse and bases his policy of killing Jews on it. However, Hitler completely ignores the MANY instances of Jesus loving other Jews (and even doing the OPPOSITE of killing to one Jew - Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead!) so I hardly think his claim is valid.

SO - what verses in the New Testament could Hitler point to to support his atrocities? If you guys can't find one, then he wasn't acting as a Christian when he did those terrible things.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

And Radagast, and myself, and a few others also "misunderstood" you? Lief, you at great length and very clearly and explicitly outlined how what needs to be done is to bring all Muslims to Christ, and have them deny their own religion and convert. I'm not going to sit here and contiunue to argue with yuou about this; you were very clear about what you said. There was no room for misinterpretation.

It was VERY clear to me that he did NOT mean "forced conversion". And now he says straight out that he did NOT mean "forced conversion". I think we should take Mooters at their word - ALL Mooters.

[Spock]

Well said "R". Just remember, facts and truth aren't well accepted by some. It can get you down at times.

[Rían]

yeah ...

That's why I also like to stress analysis of CONCLUSIONS drawn from facts, and that even here we have supposed "facts" contradicting each other. You can have a good fact, but if the conclusion drawn from it is in error, then the fact doesn't do any good. And you can have a fact that is true, but because other facts aren't known or presented, a truthful picture is NOT presented. I hope Gwai puts some of his facts here - some of those comments by Hitler that were very much AGAINST Christianity. Those are also facts.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

The German people wouldn't have been likely to believe the Allies in December of 1942.

I guess not. But they do know the Jews disappeared, they heard and know Hitler's ideology (Judenrein), and they see the reports of the Allies. Hmmm....

Wikipedia would say he's one of the minority of historians that has that viewpoint.

So Wikipedia said so. And Yad Vashem is not a "he", it's a Museum, and is probably one of the more reliable sources of information on the holocaust.

Condemning the Nazis would probably have resulted in extensive and bloody crackdowns on Catholics in Nazi occupied territories.

As you keep saying - this is a mere assumption.

Don't you think he could do something to help the millions of jews that were being exterminated in Catholic countries?



Lotesse - I understood it's not forced conversion, as he said it quite a few times in the "muslim" thread. But I find the idea evil nevertheless.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Spock

Well said "R". Just remember, facts and truth aren't well accepted by some. It can get you down at times.

Yeah, it gets me a little down from time to time, too, but I try not to get "sad" and emotional about this fact. There are millions of human beings everywhere, and yes, a lot of them here in this forum, too, who really do not like to accept facts and truth.

I'll say it again:
Yes, it is sad how some people in general in this world keep their minds suffocated & narrow so as not to allow any room for truth or wisdom. Sad, sad, sad. Yes, perhaps for certain people "it becomes easier once you realize that facts and truth are just not accepted by some." I am not one of those people for whom "it becomes easier." That is just me. I feel that consistently and doggedly denying truth and reason in preference for religious ideology and politicism is part of the bane of the world's human race. Denying truth, peace and reason is horrendously and massively destructive. Religions like to deny truth, peace, and reason. So do political parties longing for power & wealth.

I have gone to great lengths over many days here to explain my position that Hitler used Christianity and christian tenets in his rise to power and his reign. If you would like the answers to your questions, Rian, kindly read all the posts I've entered to that end. He claimed to be a christian; it got him where he wanted to go. I repeat myself ad nauseum on this, and my points keep getting dodged & sidestepped by you & by Lief, too. You guys also persistently keep ignoring the parallel I drew between Hitler with his Christianity and bin Laden with his Islam. You are repeatedly ignoring the point that I make, Rian, when I use Hitler & Christianity to show how religion is used by people in the world to justify the evil things they do. Whether or not Hitler quoted bible phrases is entirely and hugely beside this point.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Lotesse - I understood it's not forced conversion, as he said it quite a few times in the "muslim" thread. But I find the idea evil nevertheless.

O.K., and yes, I find the idea evil, too, very veery evil. He did say it would be best to bring all the Muslims to Christ and have them abandon their religion, though. Perhaps not in a forcible manner, but mass conversion nonetheless. Because Christianity is better than Islam, Judaism, or any of the other world's religions, in Lief's eyes. And that's cool, he is entitled to his opinion, but anyone suggesting that the world will only be cured of its evils & injustices by having everyone "come to Christ" and renounce their own faith is dangerously arrogant & intolerant thinking and is very, very counter-productive to any hope for worldwide peace, harmony and social growth.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

"Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it."
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."
-- Adolf Hitler, My New Order

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfil God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf


"We are determined, as leaders of the nation, to fulfill as a national government the task which has been given to us, swearing fidelity only to God, our conscience, and our Volk.... This the national government will regard its first and foremost duty to restore the unity of spirit and purpose of our Volk. It will preserve and defend the foundations upon which the power of our nation rests. It will take Christianity, as the basis of our collective morality, and the family as the nucleus of our Volk and state, under its firm protection....May God Almighty take our work into his grace, give true form to our will, bless our insight, and endow us with the trust of our Volk."

-Adolf Hitler, on 1 Feb. 1933

"Except the Lord built the house they labour in vain.... The truth of that text was proved if one looks at the house of which the foundations were laid in 1918 and which since then has been in building.... The world will not help, the people must help itself. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life.... The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty-- of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have become once more true Germans."

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in March 1933
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
and some nice quotes, to offset all these exhausting evil quotes:

" There is nothing to fear except the persistent refusal to find out the truth, the persistent refusal to analyze the causes of happenings."


~ Dorothy Thompson


"When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow."

~ Anais Nin

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I guess not. But they do know the Jews disappeared, they heard and know Hitler's ideology (Judenrein), and they see the reports of the Allies. Hmmm....

There was nothing in the Mein Kampf saying the Jews should be eradicated. Can you provide evidence that Hitler publicly stated that the Jews should be exterminated?

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

So Wikipedia said so. And Yad Vashem is not a "he", it's a Museum, and is probably one of the more reliable sources of information on the holocaust.

Lol! Forgive my ignorance .

This doesn't change the facts about what the modern accepted historical viewpoint is.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

As you keep saying - this is a mere assumption.

Don't you think he could do something to help the millions of jews that were being exterminated in Catholic countries?

According to Gwaimir Windgem's post, he did! And what I said was not mere assumption. When Pius did write something against the Nazis, it had immediate consequences against Catholics in Nazi territories. I posted a quotation from the Holocaust Museum about that. If he had taken more extensive actions, the retaliation would probably have been more extensive.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Lotesse - I understood it's not forced conversion, as he said it quite a few times in the "muslim" thread. But I find the idea evil nevertheless.

I guess all of our religion debate threads here on Entmoot should be closed at once then, for they are evil!