The ACLU - pros and cons

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

So this misconception that christmas is somehow intertwined with the foundation of america is erroneous at best and out right deception at worst. Christmas is a relatively modern notion that has been evolving CONSTANTLY and never existed in static form for hundreds of years before just now when certain people seem to think weve turned from the good old days.

Christmas has been celebrated in America since our colonial days. http://www.history.org/Almanack/life/xmas/customs.cfm
Your point about the Puritans is rather irrelevant, as they were a very, very small Christian sect. They revelled in the fact that their numbers were so tiny, because the scripture says that many were going to hell and few would find the narrow door to heaven. They thought, kudos to us, we few have found the narrow door! Since they were such a minority, you would probably do better to drop that argument.

Santa Claus has nothing to do with current ideas of an "attack on Christmas". Christians aren't complaining about people attacking Santa Claus. Rather, there actually are a few Christian groups that are trying to get Santa Claus removed from society (Wrinkles his nose.

I know that Christmas has evolved over time. I have no problem with that, and I have no problem with the celebration continuing to evolve. What I have trouble with is the attempt made by some groups to sever us from some of the important roots of our culture, by removing religion from public places.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Very much out of line?? Oh, if there's a God then THANK GOD for the ACLU, who's credo is this: to preserve & protect

In answer to you, let me just quote Butterbeer. He put what I want to say quite well.

"You should to my mind be clear in a distinction between whatever good work this organisation may do elsewhere - and this particluar ATTACK on civil liberties, by those supposedly defending it in OUR name."

[Lotesse]

Just friendly-kidding!

[Lief Erikson]

Bah.



Where do you get all of these cartoons from?

[Lotesse]

I found this one website on Google, which has a whole collection of them, and you can pick a cartoon to fit things - its: http://www.flubu.com/comics/

If you go there, you can find all KINDS of cool comics!

[Lief Erikson]

I really like all the comics you and Spock have been posting everywhere (except the one in which I thought Spock was calling me an idiot ). My speech professor told our class once that we haven't lived until we read the cartoons at the ends of newspapers .j

EDIT: (Checks the link). Wow. That's quite a collection.

[Butterbeer]

http://www.flubu.com/comics/Non_Sequitur_pan.463.g.gif


...or the ACLU christmas joke competition?



edit** heh, yeah, great site - cheers.

[HOBBIT]

No one is trying to ban Christmas or change the name of Christmas. I hope that no one here seriously believes that this is so.

Lief, the minority - here none christians - should just submit to the majority? How does that make any sense? Our government is set up to protect us from tyranny of the majority.

Non-Christians should just have to deal with it - this is a christian nation - too bad for them?
------------

How does it hurt you or ANYONE if corporations and stores say Happy Holidays? That INCLUDES Christmas. New Years is also included in that as well as Hannukah, Kwanza, etc. This is the holiday season with more than one holiday - plural.......

Should they be expected to say "Merry Christmas" to everyone when not everyone is Christian? Because after all, this is a mostly Christian nation.

Saying Happy Holidays takes NOTHING away from Christmas.

And Holiday Tree - that is just something silly - nothing to get worked up over.

Thank god for the ACLU

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

No one is trying to ban Christmas or change the name of Christmas. I hope that no one here seriously believes that this is so.

Are you reading the news?

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

Lief, the minority - here none christians - should just submit to the majority? How does that make any sense? Our government is set up to protect us from tyranny of the majority.

Obviously. However, just as it is possible for the majority to be intolerant toward the minority, it is possible for the minority to be intolerant to the majority.

I may respond to the rest of your post later. Right now, my brain is slightly frazzled because I have an endless beeping going on in my ear from a stupid song my sister's playing, and am concerned because Butterbeer misunderstood me in the Mirkwood discussion thread .

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Obviously. However, just as it is possible for the majority to be intolerant toward the minority, it is possible for the minority to be intolerant to the majority.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by BB

damn ..Rian has made it about all ACLU - (which i know nothing about) ..then wished to discuss specifically the banning of christmas - see how i highlighted that bit?

Is there something wrong with that? I started out with that because ... it's Christmastime! - and I thought it would be a good issue to start on. I also mentioned the case where they're making the City of L.A. spend probably millions of dollars taking off a teensy tiny cross, that I never even noticed because it's so small, off the official city seal, leaving the GIANT picture of the GODDESS Pomona still smack dab in the center of the seal. Now IMO, that is a ridiculous and offensive case to bring, and a total waste of money and time, and just beyond silly, taking tons of money away from the city that could be spent on health and education, all because of some intolerant minority who, if they were REALLY traumatized by that tiny cross (and missions are part of the HISTORICAL background of L.A., and the very NAME "Los Angeles" translates to "The Angels") should have just been sent for counseling and tolerance training.

That case INFURIATES me! TOTAL bully tactics, IMO.

[Lotesse]

I highly doubt that taking that little cross off the seal for California state has cost millions of dollars, but if it has, then so be it! I have seen the original state seal, and have seen the new one, and it's a wonderful improvement. There never should have been a cross on the state seal in the first place. SEPARATION of Church and State, dear Rian!!!

[Rían]

why not, since it's an important part of our history? And shouldn't the Goddess Pomona come off, then? She's not an important part of our history, as far as I know, and it sure seems like it's promoting a religion. Do you think we should change the name of Los Angeles, then, too?

[Lotesse]

The image of the pagan goddess was replaced by an indian maiden.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Exactly.

Is there something wrong with that? I started out with that because ... it's Christmastime! - and I thought it would be a good issue to start on. I also mentioned the case where they're making the City of L.A. spend probably millions of dollars taking off a teensy tiny cross, that I never even noticed because it's so small, off the official city seal, leaving the GIANT picture of the GODDESS Pomona still smack dab in the center of the seal. Now IMO, that is a ridiculous and offensive case to bring, and a total waste of money and time, and just beyond silly, taking tons of money away from the city that could be spent on health and education, all because of some intolerant minority who, if they were REALLY traumatized by that tiny cross (and missions are part of the HISTORICAL background of L.A., and the very NAME "Los Angeles" translates to "The Angels") should have just been sent for counseling and tolerance training.

That case INFURIATES me! TOTAL bully tactics, IMO.

well, RI if you read my post ..it was because i was halfway through saying this thread was about the ACLU banning of christmas not about the ACLU itself ..till i double checked and realised actually BJ was right and it was about the ACLU - pros and cons - which, er ... made me point a bit there a bit naff - but i thought i rallied quite well

best BB

[Lotesse]

I thought so too! That was a nice post you did, BB! Dramatic, but very cool.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

The image of the pagan goddess was replaced by an indian maiden.

oh, really? I hadn't heard that. Then at least they're being fair. I wonder if the ACLU pushed that, or if it was just the city of LA that did it. I still think what the ACLU did in that case was VERY wrong, and an extremely poor use of resources, and a case of the minority being intolerant towards the majority, esp. because we're talking historical aspects of Los Angeles.

Now will the ACLU object to the Indian Maiden, since IIRC they're behind the push to eliminate all the Indian-type names of sports teams and universities, even if they are sanctioned by the tribe itself?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

well, RI if you read my post ..it was because i was halfway through saying this thread was about the ACLU banning of christmas not about the ACLU itself ..till i double checked and realised actually BJ was right and it was about the ACLU - pros and cons - which, er ... made me point a bit there a bit naff - but i thought i rallied quite well

best BB

OK

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Run this logically then , if we object to christmas: we then have the totally unarguable right to complain about Diwlai, Ede, hannukah, etc etc ... where does it end? CND symbols? Peace doves? Pink LGB wrist bands?, medals of honour on old soldiers? National flags? Mosques? Gurdwaras? Jewish caps? Long beards? wearing a cross bracelet? Watching the simpsons? supporting or wearing a football club or shirt? Naming your child with a "christian" name?

Must we all be called non controversial numbers henceforth?

Shall we ban, david or peter, or simon or paul?

What of Ali or imam or raj or Gujinder or Vishal etc etc ...

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Now will the ACLU object to the Indian Maiden, since IIRC they're behind the push to eliminate all the Indian-type names of sports teams and universities, even if they are sanctioned by the tribe itself?

Lol. You and Butterbeer are making the case very effectively that "tolerance" and secularism could make this country a very, very dull place.

[Butterbeer]

well, i say again, civil liberties i am totally for - lunacy against.

why would the mohawks or the ..i don't know the ..er ... pittsburgh chiefs or whatever be a negative thing???

PC (political correctness) is insidious and can go too far - which for me is a real shame because i generally tend to side more with the principles of frredom, civil liberties, libertarianism and multiculturism etc - but PC is to me in its current form merely fascism.


..and stop jumping on me Rian !!! here there and everywhere esp since you missed the point of what i was saying .... both times

as i said above i mistakenly thought mid post this was specifically about christmas ..and to be fair it isn't just that particluar example is it - it's ACLU itself pros and cons?

best BB

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

oh, really? I hadn't heard that. Then at least they're being fair. I wonder if the ACLU pushed that, or if it was just the city of LA that did it. I still think what the ACLU did in that case was VERY wrong, and an extremely poor use of resources, and a case of the minority being intolerant towards the majority, esp. because we're talking historical aspects of Los Angeles.

Now will the ACLU object to the Indian Maiden, since IIRC they're behind the push to eliminate all the Indian-type names of sports teams and universities, even if they are sanctioned by the tribe itself?

Why are you so against the ACLU? And the maiden is Indian because the first people to live in California were the Native Americans. That's what she represents. That is a great HONOUR to native americans, not a dishonour. She's not p[ainted red and waving a tomahawk saying "How," or anything! And if you're worried about historical aspects of California in the vein of missions, well worry no longer because one of the components of the Seal is a mission, to represent the great role that missions had in settling California. H

Here's more:


The Native American woman represents the early inhabitants of the Los Angeles Basin, including the area we now call Los Angeles County.

She stands on the shore of the Pacific Ocean with the San Gabriel Mountains in the background.

The engineering instruments‹the triangle and the caliper‹relate to the industrial construction complex of the County and Los Angeles vital contribution to the conquest of space.

The Spanish galleon is the San Salvador, which Cabrillo sailed into San Pedro Harbor October 8, 1542.

The tuna represents the fishing industry of Los Angeles County, and the championship cow, Pearlette, represents the dairy industry.

The Hollywood Bowl indicates the cultural activities, while the two stars represent the motion picture and television industries.

Mission San Gabriel, the first in Los Angeles County, represents the historic role of the missions in the settlement of the Los Angeles region.

The words “County of Los Angeles, California� surround the seal.

Here's the OLD seal, so we can compare & contrast:

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Lol. You and Butterbeer are making the case very effectively that "tolerance" and secularism could make this country a very, very dull place.

you know what Lief .. i had to read that again before i mistakenly for a second time took that the wrong way!

and here's me joshing rian not to keep jumping on me!

hah!

sorry - btw rian..saw your post above, too just now

*edit***

funny really- for pretty much the first time in Gm i find myself on side with Lief and rian - what happens i end up either jumping on them ..or they me ... alhough in lief's case it was somewhere else by mistake

funny old world ain't it?