Paris Is Burning

[Butterbeer]

well, spock i havent a clue what one for zero meant either.

is rohirrim right? ... that they actually won something in the last 100 years??

well, they did win the world cup and also the european championship .... does that count?

Nurv ..regarding men rioting ...these are mostly muslims ... perhaps that answers your question?

Lief - hello! long time .... mmm i think perhaps your french teacher maybe a tad biased ... but then why are third gen muslims not better integrated? this is the root of the rioting, that and racism ... and new draconian terror laws targeted at muslims and a secular state and general french arogance, and the reaction fueling resentment not dampening it ...

a report today on the radio in the uk said that somehting like 56% of UK indians went on to become professionals with careers and were upwardly mobile , against 32% from white working class families ... figures not exact btw - from memory ... interesting it said "indians' though not asians - i.e. including muslims ...

of course in the uk the majority of muslims are from pakistan .. and they have jointly brought us our national dish ...curry! ...and like cricket ... whereas in France they are largely from Algeria .... which i know little about.


Lotesse .... try 'actifed' or home-made chicken soup ... where the bones are boiled in the broth .... hope you feel better soon!

but anyway .... i am interested to know your thoughts on the french riots ...

what are your thoughts?

BTW martin luther king was a bit of a rarity, a one off, and the opression of the black community in the states as second class citizens even up to the 1960's was shameful ....

but in france today the encroaching ghettoisation and marginalisation is a different thing, in a different country - a secular state and in a different time with a group largely without a voice ....

anyway i'd like to know your thougths and what especially interests you about it.

[rohirrim TR]

well you see BB the only thing france is good at hosting is....invasions. so if there is a prize for that maybe they got 1 out of 0, any way i read that 5 out of 4 people have a hard time with fractions so maybe spock is one of em.

[Butterbeer]

hah, thats funny i was just about to tease tamuril what fraction french she was!

ok ..just seen your post there lotesse as i was typing mine ...yeah 8 million from )50- 60M is it??) is an AWFUL lot not to integarte and then wonder whats going on.

btw france is large and with tons of land not built up compared to the uk or germany ...

[Lotesse]

I need some of that actified chicken soup, BADLY.

My thoughts are muddled today, and I'm still listening to as much BBC and NPR radio news as I can, and reading as much as I can online, etcetera, to learn enough about this interesting Parisian Rioting situation to be ABLE to voice a real solid opinion or take on it all. Pretty much, I started this thread to get input and opinions and stuff from everyone else who might know more than I, or be closer to France literally, stuff like that -

I do say, though, that the situation is ripe for a Martin Luther King, Jr. or a Gandhi or a Malcom X, or a Che Guevara, you know, a gifted, special revolutionary leader who could polarise the people who want to execute change, and actually get them organised to make change in a real and lasting and LESS DESTRUCTIVE way. I mean, this car burning crap is just lazy revolution if you ask me. Mindless, brainless, non-committed lazy revolution, which changes nothing except just piss off the establishment more and give The Man even more and better reasons to continue making it so difficult to integrate.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

well you see BB the only thing france is good at hosting is....invasions. so if there is a prize for that maybe they got 1 out of 0, any way i read that 5 out of 4 people have a hard time with fractions so maybe spock is one of em.

I'd like to ask to to please stop this nonsensical spammish dogging of France and other mooters. Can we all just knock it off with the pointless chatter here, how many friggin' times must I ASK THIS!!!!!!!!!!

[Butterbeer]

well i dont yet see it as anything other than disturbances caused by pent up rage and alienation ...but yes maybe this will now after 20 days take on a new life of its own and lead to a new movement or leader ....sadly i fear its just an urban riot ... but from it change may happen or the repression increase ... the latter i fear being the more likely .... push them hard enugh into a corner and we may yet see a new leader arise ...

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I'd like to ask to to please stop this nonsensical spammish dogging of France and other mooters. Can we all just knock it off with the pointless chatter here, how many friggin' times must I ASK THIS!!!!!!!!!!

sorry, i was trying to illuminate spock speaking in riddle and it seemed the time and place for france joke. don't be , get glad.
for the record i didn't "dog" any individual.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Spock

Well, early Monday, the news here is reporting the French Cabinet has extended the state of emergency for another 3 months. Perhaps they think they can win this and be 1 for zero in the past 100 years.

Actually, I think they're extending the state of emergency to enable them to do a bit of cleaning-up. Some of the judges have been holding trials for rioteers almost non-stop. I think extending the emergency somewhat longer is not such a bad idea in that light. Supposedly anyone who's arrested for making trouble and who doesn't have a legitimate visa is getting a ticket back 'home' also.

[Linaewen]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

That is an eNORmous segment of the population to be non-integrated within the society. Why do they move to France if France so obviously wishes not to integrate them into its society, is what I wonder.

I'll use my family's story as an example. In Cambodia, they went through absolute hell with the genocide, slavery and oppression. Then they spent a year or two in a Thai concentration camp which wasn't so good either- I'm talking very substandard living conditions and alienation etc. Do you know how good the prospect of immigrating to a Western country- any Western country- would have been to them? When you've gone through such adversity, you trust that the more developed, civilised nation you're going to will have all that stuff worked out, re the unemployment and discrimination. Fortunately, we've integrated very well here. But imagine going from extreme poverty to a country where you're still poor, unemployed and ostracised to boot. And you think your only way of fighting against it is through violence (which I'm not condoning), because in your previous country you couldn't even do that.

Erm, am I even making any sense? Sorry, what I've written is terrible.

Btw, maybe they weren't aware of the problem of integration into French society? The shoddy education my parents received in Cambodia meant that they wouldn't have known anything like that, and they probably wouldn't have cared anyway. Escape was the important thing.

[Butterbeer]

incredible sense.

sums it up : at least the reasons of desiring to go to france.

Glad Australia has worked for your family .. what a family history!

best BB

[Nurvingiel]

Wow, there's a lot of posts in here...

Lotesse, thank you for the link. Linaewen, what you say about the reasons people immigrate made perfect sense and I think you wrote that very well.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Nurv ..regarding men rioting ...these are mostly muslims ... perhaps that answers your question?

It doesn't, because there isn't a disproportionately large population of French Muslim men as opposed to French Muslim women.
Perhaps men in general are more violent? That seems like an awful conclusion to draw.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I do say, though, that the situation is ripe for a Martin Luther King, Jr. or a Gandhi or a Malcom X, or a Che Guevara, you know, a gifted, special revolutionary leader who could polarise the people who want to execute change, and actually get them organised to make change in a real and lasting and LESS DESTRUCTIVE way. I mean, this car burning crap is just lazy revolution if you ask me. Mindless, brainless, non-committed lazy revolution, which changes nothing except just piss off the establishment more and give The Man even more and better reasons to continue making it so difficult to integrate.

I don't think that the rioters were trying to achieve a revolution. Rioting is a product of anger, frustration, desperation, and who knows what else? There is a mob mentality at work as well.
There was a riot (obviously smaller scale than this) in Vancouver in 1994 after the Canucks lost the Stanley Cup in the final game. If you had separated the crowd into individuals, I think you would discover only a very few were actually violent people. This means non-violent, law-abiding people were rioting. Why?
Now, the 1994 riot doesn't really compare to what's happenning in France right now. The factors leading up to, and during the riot are completely different.
I brought up the Vancouver riot because what the two situations have in common is that as individuals, most of the rioters are not violent people.

I think this situation could use a peaceful, compassionate, far-thinking leader like Martin Luther King Jr. or Che Guevara. We all need leaders like them, but especially desperate people who do not feel at home in their own country.

[Count Comfect]

To stick my head in here about predominantly male rioters - first, it is an immigrant population, and those do tend to have a skewed demographic. Men, especially young men, are more likely to immigrate than women are. Second, Butterbeer's point about these being Muslims (and, it appears, somewhat religious ones) does indeed apply, not because a Muslim population is necessarily predominantly male, but that in Muslim societies quite often men have a monopoly or near-monopoly on violence and on political agency - both of which apply here.

Unfortunately, France is in a really bad job situation right now - it, like much of the EU, has seen rocketing unemployment in recent years - and so the economic issues (which are, of course, by no means all the issues) of the rioters are unlikely to be solved in the short term.

[trolls' bane]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

[off topic]
I second bafflement of the spamming of two otherwise very fine Mooters. Rohirrim TR and TB, you guys normally rock. What the heck is this? Don't you think it's really insensitive to spam a thread discussing riots that have been going on over two weeks, and span an entire country? People are dying in France, so obviously no one cares about the antics of EDDIE or whatever in this thread. Take it to the Café where you are always welcome.
[/off topic]

I don't get it! Neither of us ever even mentioned EDDIE, and barely and indirectly mentioned the Empire! How is not saying something on the matter at all spamming? How is using a good metaphor (let me point out, unrelated to EDDIE or the Empire) spamming? I guess saying this now is more like spamming.
Oh well..."War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength."

Well, anyway, I guess I'd just like to say that I now know the correct number of nights of rioting, and that is 18, not counting tonight, because I don't think it will spontaneously stop. I'm still not quite clear on the whole reason for rioting. Racial issues? Dang, that bad, huh? I'm just thankful I'm not a member of the French club at my school, because I beleive they were scheduled to go there this month.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

To stick my head in here about predominantly male rioters - first, it is an immigrant population, and those do tend to have a skewed demographic. Men, especially young men, are more likely to immigrate than women are. Second, Butterbeer's point about these being Muslims (and, it appears, somewhat religious ones) does indeed apply, not because a Muslim population is necessarily predominantly male, but that in Muslim societies quite often men have a monopoly or near-monopoly on violence and on political agency - both of which apply here.

Oh. Thanks Butterbeer and Count Comfect. I understand a little more now. However, the children of immigrants are not going to be skewed gender-wise. I mean, aren't most of the rioters children of people who immigrated in the 1960s and 1970s?

I PM'd you Trolls' Bane, but now I think maybe this is all a case of not understanding an obscure metaphor rather than actual spam.

[Count Comfect]

TB's reference to the Sixty One is spot on, if you've read Red Mars. It is eerily similar. However, it's a bit of an obscure reference, and wasn't really put into context, hence it was confusing and treated as spam, alas.

Well, some of these are 1st generation immigrants, but yes, the children should not be skewed - however, the point about Muslim society remains.

[trolls' bane]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Oh. Thanks Butterbeer and Count Comfect. I understand a little more now. However, the children of immigrants are not going to be skewed gender-wise. I mean, aren't most of the rioters children of people who immigrated in the 1960s and 1970s?

I PM'd you Trolls' Bane, but now I think maybe this is all a case of not understanding an obscure metaphor rather than actual spam.

Thank's Nurv and Count. I saw it, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who agrees that it isn't spam and is, in fact, an obscure reference. I was referring to the disorganization and chaos of Sixty-one, and I should have said so in the first place.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by trolls' bane

I'm just thankful I'm not a member of the French club at my school, because I beleive they were scheduled to go there this month.

Actually, the chance that they're running into any trouble is small. The riots are, if I'm not mistaken, concentrated in the inpovered quartiers. People who visit the touristical center of Paris will probably not notice a thing, except maybe a heightened police presence.

[Butterbeer]

Thank you Count, though i was not so much going on the gender demographic ... though true all the same, but as you said these are religious muslims:

perhaps Nurv is unclear on what this means for muslim women?

apart from everything else, like no way their wives or sisters would be allowed ( and sadly, i use that word advisedly) out into such a conflict or situation .... the wearing of abaya's, jilbab's, hijab's etc just are NOT practical for riots at night and not getting caught by the police when chased etc ....

the very idea that the rioters should be equally women flabberghasts me in this context ...

its about as equally likely, nurv that the muslim rioters were all eating pork sandwiches while they rioted!

Not very likely.

To our western eyes it is very odd and very 'biblical times' seeming , but the role and status of the woman in Islam is not at all equal -

France has been trying to force secularism in schools by taking away culture and religious beleifs (etc)... thus further condemning the Muslim population into more ghettos and condemning themsleves (france) to riots, instability and economic uncertainty ....

MIND YOU there, as here, there is a big issue with the muslim community not wanting or being willing enough to make more effort to integrate themselves and thus break down barriers ....

language is one thing .... forming small inward-looking sub-communities is another ...

here, the asian population as a whole is very integrated and there are many well to do families, businesses and career professionals etc etc, the second and third gen aasociate as english with many of our core values, humour, outlook etc but also with pride in their original humour, values and culture etc - but the group that stands the most out of this is sadly the muslims: where i live will soon be a BME (black and minority ethnic ) MAJORITY city within 10-15 years by projection, and although there is always racism and sometimes tensions between groups - largely it is very well integrated and mutlicutural ... i find it odd in other parts of England to see all white societies ... very odd!



When you take for granted without a second thought people of all colours, looks, races, clothing, cultures etc as your work colleague, postman, doctor, policeman, bar tender, sexy girl on dancefloor, boss, friend, neighbour etc .... and you get to know them the whole breaks down quite a lot - those who integrate break the way for others to follow with less resistance until it is more or less taken as a granted .... we are not there yet but the opportunity society is pretty open in that respect ...

but when you get a group mentaility with a group to oppose ... it can all very quickly go downhill - the french need to decide if they want to up the stakes and enflame the unrest or try a less arrogant aproach!

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Tessar

No, I understand what you're talking about Spock. I'm saying you should explain it to Nurv. if you want to use Gandalf's quote .

If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you."......this meant Gandalf won't do it-neither will I

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Actually, the chance that they're running into any trouble is small. The riots are, if I'm not mistaken, concentrated in the inpovered quartiers. People who visit the touristical center of Paris will probably not notice a thing, except maybe a heightened police presence.

The only major city areas that have been touched by this are those of Lyon.