Dinosaurs!!!

[Lotesse]

O.k., O.k.!

[Elanor]

I like dinosaurs. I've been to several dinosaur museums and quarries. When I was little my brother was obsessed with them. He badgered my parents into getting one of those "Dino-riders" -- animated toy dinosaurs with seats for little plastic people. I think we still have it somewhere. Broken, of course.

As for the similarity between dragons and dinosaurs--and the universality of the myth-- I always thought it was just that people in medieval or earlier times came across dinosaur bones while plowing or digging wells or something, and thought they had uncovered the bones of dragons. In a jumble of bones, it would be hard to distinguish what parts of the skeleten belonged to which animal, so you could easily come up with something that flies, has horns, a long tail, big teeth, optional spikes in various places, etc. Breathing fire is just another step for the imagination -- that and the religious connotation of Satan as the Dragon (originally just a serpent), fires of hell, and so forth. Check out The Medieval Bestiary for some examples of how active their imaginations could be in medieval times! (and how the leopard got its name ) Lack of information + big imaginations + strange religious ideas = Very odd creatures.

The sea monster thing? I've been to Loch Ness and wasn't all that impressed -- The lake is very beautiful (and mosquito infested-- in fact I think the mosquito is the Real Nessie!), but the visitor's centre is a waste of time -- a lot of hype. There could be something in there, perhaps a big snake or descendent of a prehistoric animal, but I don't think it's all that big of a deal. Oceanic sea monsters could be anything, really-- whales, snakes, crocodiles, octopi, or even sea turtles. There's a religious connotation for this as well-- Leviathan, the Sea Monster, in Job. Linguistic experts think it just refers to a giant crocodile.

[Lotesse]

Elanor, do you know much about the biblical Leviathan myth? I'm curious about it, because it's one thing I really know nothing about. I met someone last year who fascinated me with his obsession with Leviathan. Frankly, it - and he - was slightly spooky; the guy's a dangerous nutjob hollywood gangbanger but the theme caught my imagination and interest, then I never pursued my curiosity and never ran into anybody else who'd heard of or knew about this Leviathan mythology. What is Leviathan?

[Elanor]

Here are the main biblical references to leviathan. (Copied from a website-- not typed out by hand!)

Job 41 describes him in detail. I think this could refer to a crocodile, except for the breathing fire part:
1 CANST thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
6 Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?
8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.
9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
10 None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?
11 Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
12 I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.
13 Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?
14 Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
17 They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
18 By his neesings [sneezings] a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
22 In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.
23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.
24 His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
25 When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.
26 The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
27 He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.
28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
29 Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.
30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.
33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

Psalm 74:14 Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

Psalm 104:
24 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.
25 So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.
26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
27 These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season.

Isaiah 27: 1 IN that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

To me, it seems that leviathan is sometimes a reference to an actual creature (which is edible according to Psalm 74), but also sometimes symbolic of either the forces of nature, which God has power over, or the forces of evil or chaos, which will eventually fall.

[Lotesse]

Thanx 4 that, Elanor!

[Lief Erikson]

Did you all know a T-Rex bone was broken open (I think in the creature's leg), and soft tissue found inside? According to my Biology professor, it was a most remarkable find, and it showed up on BBC News for a while as well. I wonder what kinds of things could be discovered about the creature from that tissue.

[Earniel]

That's not an entirely new find is it? At least, I think I've heard it before, a while or so ago. The article I then read about it was quick to state that a 'Jurassic Park', however, was not yet imminent.

[Lotesse]

What do they do with that stuff, do they test it for DNA information and learn more about the T-Rex's life and habits and stuff like that, from the soft tissue?

[Earniel]

If DNA is still present and readable (which I thought in this case it was, or though perhaps fragmented, not sure however) they can compare it with the DNA of other organisms and see how they are related. If, for example, the comparison with modern-day bird DNA shows matches, that could further support the dinosaur-bird evolutionary link.

[Lotesse]

Oh!! How cool is THAT! Very cool, very cool. I'm gonna google this interesting dinosaur news item... *goes to google it*

[Lotesse]

Here, I found this article about it -

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?se...ate&id=3748707

[Lotesse]

9AP) A newly discovered fossil may be the remains of one of the first stealth hunters, a swimming dinosaur that could use its long neck to sneak up on prey and strike without warning.

Once a resident of a shallow sea in what is now southeast China, the newly found reptile with fangs would have hunted in murky waters, its small head extending far from the bulky body that fish would have recognized as a predator.

"The long neck would allow it to approach prey without the whole body becoming visible," Olivier Rieppel of the Field Museum in Chicago, a co-author of the report, said in a telephone interview.

The new fossil was discovered by Chun Li of the Chinese Academy of Sciences in 2002. The creature is described by Li and colleagues in this week's issue of the journal Science.

Li named the new dinosaur, which lived about 230 million years ago, Dinocephalosaurus orientalis, meaning terrible headed lizard from the Orient.




With a body about three feet long and a neck adding five and a half feet - the newly named creature is related to Tanystropheus, another long-necked reptile that lived in the area of Europe and the Middle East.


They are both members of a diverse reptile group called the protorosaurs, which have long necks and elongated neck vertebrae. For years scientists have wondered at the purpose for the long necks in this group of animals.

[Lief Erikson]

Hmm. I wonder how they know that that's what the length of the neck was for.

That's a cool picture. Oh, how I would love to see in real life some dinosaurs.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Hmm. I wonder how they know that that's what the length of the neck was for.

they don't "know"... but it's a theory

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

they don't "know"... but it's a theory

If they're making guesses, that's fine by me. It's just having it written in a column like that made it sound a bit more certain than a guess.