Blame Fëanor - Page 4

Manveru · 01-29-2005, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

maybe the concept of feanor was melkor's deviant music?

That's possible, but that would make Melkor the guy to be blamed. Anyways what about all the terrible stuff that Melkor did before Feanor was born. Knocking down the lamps and leveling mountains and all that jazz.

Wayfarer · 01-29-2005, 07:15 PM

Maybe Feanor was the one responsible for corrupting Melkor in the first place?

Melkor went out into the Void, which was where he got the inspiration for his rebellion. While in the void he could have come into contact with a time-travelling future version of Feanor, who convinced him to go against Eru. Ever think about that?

Elemmírë · 01-29-2005, 07:20 PM

Actually, yes. I was considering the possibilities of time travel.

Nice idea, Spidey.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 01-29-2005, 07:25 PM

my next theory: the havens of umbar being a haven for black numenorans

most of it is feanor and his oath, without that no noldor in beleriand and so on no numenor hence o black numenoreans hence no umbar

Wayfarer · 01-29-2005, 07:36 PM

Well... If Feanor hadn't dragged the Noldor to Middle Earth, the Edain wouldn't have had to help them out. If the Edain hadn't saved their butts, the Valar wouldn't have given them Numenor. If they'd never migrated to Numenor, then Umbar wouldn't have been founded and there wouldn't be any Black Numenoreans.

Manveru · 01-29-2005, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

my next theory: the havens of umbar being a haven for black numenorans

most of it is feanor and his oath, without that no noldor in beleriand and so on no numenor hence o black numenoreans hence no umbar

hence no gondor, hence no arnor, hence no rohan, hence no shire, hence no aragorn, hence no army of the dead, hence no happy ending to the lord of the rings

Pytt · 01-29-2005, 09:41 PM

No, but no ring either. so no lord of the rings at all.

Manveru · 01-29-2005, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pytt

No, but no ring either. so no lord of the rings at all.

Why? Morgoth could've corrupted Sauron without Feanor. In fact if it wasn't for Feanor and his Silmarills Ungoliant wouldn't have left Morgoth, so really I think we should be thanking Feanor because without him those two could've done alot more damage.

Elemmírë · 01-29-2005, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manveru

hence no gondor, hence no arnor, hence no rohan, hence no shire, hence no aragorn, hence no army of the dead, hence no happy ending to the lord of the rings

But a happy ending to the Silmarillion!

Though the story would have been quite a bit shorter...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manveru

In fact if it wasn't for Feanor and his Silmarills Ungoliant wouldn't have left Morgoth, so really I think we should be thanking Feanor because without him those two could've done alot more damage.

I don't agree. I think eventually I, Ungoliant would have left Morgoth with or without the Silmarils. If we had stayed together a bit longer, more damage might have been done, of course, but the end result would have most likely been the same.

Greed doesn't just come out of nowhere. Even without the Silmarilli, eventually Ungoliant would have wanted more than Morgoth was willing to give her. Perhaps with a bit more time she would have been powerful enough to overtake him.

That, of course, would leave us with a whole other set of problems...

Elemmírë · 01-29-2005, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manveru

Why? Morgoth could've corrupted Sauron without Feanor.

A lot of things, for good or for evil, could have happened, and likely would have, without Fëanor. The story would be much different, but it would not necessarily be better or worse.

I'm not claiming that the world would have been perfect without Fëanor, simply that much of went wrong in this particular sequence of events was Fëanor's fault. Who can say what would have happened without Fëanor? Possibly just a whole other set of problems.

Still, this doesn't mean that Fëanor's blame should be any less.

Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane · 01-29-2005, 11:17 PM

Aren't you forgeting Eru? Since there is no free will and everything happens the way he wants it to then perhaps he meant for Feanor to be as...stupid...evil...whatever as he was. In which case Eru made Melkor evil because of Feanor and everything that followed was Feanor's fault because Eru had to stick with that same theme.
Now there are other people you could blame, and if you go with my train of thought then you end up giving most of the blame to Eru, but Feanor still gets some. And that is the point, to blame him. Nothing was said about all the blame.
Which is a question I have, are you trying to give him all the blame? A neat thing about what I was thinking though, is that you don't have to go on the whole retrospective blame stuff.

Elemmírë · 01-29-2005, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Several of us decided in another thread that everything in ME that ever went wrong is Fëanor's fault.

So, yes, we are trying to give him all the blame. It would be entertaining to see if it can be done.

And by giving him all the blame, I don't see how we can avoid retroactive guilt (I wonder if that's something I just coined...

). Of course there are other people who could be blamed (Túrin...Túrin...Túrin...), but I don't think that any, saving Melkor, is as supportable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mabass

Aren't you forgeting Eru? Since there is no free will and everything happens the way he wants it to then perhaps he meant for Feanor to be as...stupid...evil...whatever as he was. In which case Eru made Melkor evil because of Feanor and everything that followed was Feanor's fault because Eru had to stick with that same theme.

Essentially that's what I was saying. Yes.

Blame everything on Eru...? I thought you liked him...

Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane · 01-30-2005, 12:51 AM

Hey...I can change my mind. No...I still like Eru. He is my favorite, but I was trying to help with the blame part.
Hey! That's it! Eru was thinking up people to create and he gave them little voices so that they could tell him what they would be like. But he didn't think them up in order, this was just a rough draft. He acctually thought of Feanor first and since Feanor's mind was never at rest, he thought up lies to convince Eru that all would be well with Melkor and himself. And so...it is all Feanor's fault. And now none of the blame rests on Eru.

Elemmírë · 01-30-2005, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane

Hey...I can change my mind. No...I still like Eru. He is my favorite, but I was trying to help with the blame part.
Hey! That's it! Eru was thinking up people to create and he gave them little voices so that they could tell him what they would be like. But he didn't think them up in order, this was just a rough draft. He acctually thought of Feanor first and since Feanor's mind was never at rest, he thought up lies to convince Eru that all would be well with Melkor and himself. And so...it is all Feanor's fault. And now none of the blame rests on Eru.

cute.

Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane · 01-30-2005, 02:14 AM

Thank you.

trolls' bane · 01-30-2005, 02:17 AM

So, you're saying it was Feänor's fault that the pillars were destroyed?
(sorry if someone already mentioned that)

But it is easy to blame on him...

Wayfarer · 01-30-2005, 02:29 AM

Try and follow me here.

If the pillars had never been destroyed, Yavanna never would have created the Two Trees.
If the Two Trees had never been created, Feanor would have never been able to create the Silmarils.
The Silmarils were the culmination of Feanor's existance. Everything that he was revolved around them.

So, the Pillars had to be destroyed so that Feanor could could create the Silmarils.

trolls' bane · 01-30-2005, 02:38 AM

Hmm. Sorry. I'm up at ten (the easy part) after having several cans of soda and have been lisenting to people attempting to sing but failing miserably, so I am not thinking beyond what I am primarily thinking and I feel like doing something sudden for no reason because I'm so tired so here:

Mg, Magnesium, Group II: Alkaline Metals, Solid, Metal, Higly Reactive, corrosive, luster=shiny, color=silver.

Elemmírë · 01-30-2005, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Try and follow me here.

If the pillars had never been destroyed, Yavanna never would have created the Two Trees.
If the Two Trees had never been created, Feanor would have never been able to create the Silmarils.
The Silmarils were the culmination of Feanor's existance. Everything that he was revolved around them.

So, the Pillars had to be destroyed so that Feanor could could create the Silmarils.

Ah! You're following my logic now.

I wasn't sure before whether you were on our side here or just being sarcastic...

Nice to have you with us (if you are)... And I don't think we can lose now

Heh. TB, I'm tired too. It took me several minutes to realise "shiny" and "luster" were not referring to Fëanor...

Wayfarer · 01-30-2005, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elemmire

I wasn't sure before whether you were on our side here or just being sarcastic...

Oh, come on. What would Treebeard Say?

01-29-2005, 07:15 PM	#62
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Maybe Feanor was the one responsible for corrupting Melkor in the first place? Melkor went out into the Void, which was where he got the inspiration for his rebellion. While in the void he could have come into contact with a time-travelling future version of Feanor, who convinced him to go against Eru. Ever think about that? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-29-2005, 07:20 PM	#63
Elemmírë avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	Actually, yes. I was considering the possibilities of time travel. Nice idea, Spidey. __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman

01-29-2005, 07:36 PM	#65
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Well... If Feanor hadn't dragged the Noldor to Middle Earth, the Edain wouldn't have had to help them out. If the Edain hadn't saved their butts, the Valar wouldn't have given them Numenor. If they'd never migrated to Numenor, then Umbar wouldn't have been founded and there wouldn't be any Black Numenoreans. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-29-2005, 09:41 PM	#67
Pytt The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: trondheim, norway Posts: 1,388	No, but no ring either. so no lord of the rings at all. __________________ Don't Panic!

01-29-2005, 11:17 PM	#71
Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 103	Aren't you forgeting Eru? Since there is no free will and everything happens the way he wants it to then perhaps he meant for Feanor to be as...stupid...evil...whatever as he was. In which case Eru made Melkor evil because of Feanor and everything that followed was Feanor's fault because Eru had to stick with that same theme. Now there are other people you could blame, and if you go with my train of thought then you end up giving most of the blame to Eru, but Feanor still gets some. And that is the point, to blame him. Nothing was said about all the blame. Which is a question I have, are you trying to give him all the blame? A neat thing about what I was thinking though, is that you don't have to go on the whole retrospective blame stuff. __________________ "Not only did my encounters with voters confirm the fundamental decency of the American people, they also reminded me that at the core of the American experience are a set of ideals that continue to stir our collective conscience; a common set of values that bind us together despite our differences; a running thread of hope that makes our improbable experiment in democracy work..." Barack Obama, The Audacity of Hope

01-29-2005, 07:25 PM	#64
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	my next theory: the havens of umbar being a haven for black numenorans most of it is feanor and his oath, without that no noldor in beleriand and so on no numenor hence o black numenoreans hence no umbar

01-30-2005, 12:51 AM	#73
Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 103	Hey...I can change my mind. No...I still like Eru. He is my favorite, but I was trying to help with the blame part. Hey! That's it! Eru was thinking up people to create and he gave them little voices so that they could tell him what they would be like. But he didn't think them up in order, this was just a rough draft. He acctually thought of Feanor first and since Feanor's mind was never at rest, he thought up lies to convince Eru that all would be well with Melkor and himself. And so...it is all Feanor's fault. And now none of the blame rests on Eru. __________________ "Not only did my encounters with voters confirm the fundamental decency of the American people, they also reminded me that at the core of the American experience are a set of ideals that continue to stir our collective conscience; a common set of values that bind us together despite our differences; a running thread of hope that makes our improbable experiment in democracy work..." Barack Obama, The Audacity of Hope Last edited by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane : 01-30-2005 at 01:05 AM.

01-30-2005, 02:14 AM	#75
Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 103	Thank you. __________________ "Not only did my encounters with voters confirm the fundamental decency of the American people, they also reminded me that at the core of the American experience are a set of ideals that continue to stir our collective conscience; a common set of values that bind us together despite our differences; a running thread of hope that makes our improbable experiment in democracy work..." Barack Obama, The Audacity of Hope

01-30-2005, 02:17 AM	#76
trolls' bane Entmoot Secretary of the Treasury Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Campsite-by-Giraffe Posts: 5,408	So, you're saying it was Feänor's fault that the pillars were destroyed? (sorry if someone already mentioned that) But it is easy to blame on him... __________________ KI6PFA Amateur Radio Operator

01-30-2005, 02:29 AM	#77
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Try and follow me here. If the pillars had never been destroyed, Yavanna never would have created the Two Trees. If the Two Trees had never been created, Feanor would have never been able to create the Silmarils. The Silmarils were the culmination of Feanor's existance. Everything that he was revolved around them. So, the Pillars had to be destroyed so that Feanor could could create the Silmarils. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-30-2005, 02:38 AM	#78
trolls' bane Entmoot Secretary of the Treasury Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Campsite-by-Giraffe Posts: 5,408	Hmm. Sorry. I'm up at ten (the easy part) after having several cans of soda and have been lisenting to people attempting to sing but failing miserably, so I am not thinking beyond what I am primarily thinking and I feel like doing something sudden for no reason because I'm so tired so here: Mg, Magnesium, Group II: Alkaline Metals, Solid, Metal, Higly Reactive, corrosive, luster=shiny, color=silver. __________________ KI6PFA Amateur Radio Operator

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