400 Held Hostage in Russian School - Page 4

***HOBBIT*** · 09-04-2004, 06:08 PM

hmm i actually agree with JD in this topic.

***Rían*** · 09-05-2004, 01:26 AM

Whew - targeting a school where there's lots of kids - really sick.

Poor Russians

Andúril · 09-05-2004, 04:48 AM

333 confirmed dead. 260 unaccounted for and presumed dead.

Radagast · 09-05-2004, 06:03 AM

I do not buy the 'Russian Government is to blame' argument. Vladimir Putin was elected on the promise to end the Chechen problem, using force if neccessary. Therefore how can you blame the Government for giving the people what they want? If anything, blame the Russian people (not that I do).

Artanis · 09-05-2004, 08:40 AM

Well, I partly agree with Grey_Wolf when he says that the Russian government is the root of this conflict. And that is NOT the same as saying "they deserved it"!

BUT, they have been leading a cruel war against Checknya. How many children have been killed in that war? I don't think Al Qaida would have been so present in Checknya without this war.

Radagast · 09-05-2004, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artanis

they have been leading a cruel war against Checknya.

How has the war in Chechnya been more cruel than any other war? Is 'leading a war' in itself a justification for terrorist acts? Remember, though the war against Chechnya explains everything it defends absolutely nothing. Their actions were indefensible, and to cast Putin, who after all is the head of a democratically elected government, as the villain in this affair is to cast the victim as the perpetrator.

Artanis · 09-05-2004, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radagast

How has the war in Chechnya been more cruel than any other war? Is 'leading a war' in itself a justification for terrorist acts?

I did not say any of these things. All wars are terrible, and I will not range them. But there is not to be denied that the war in Chechnya has cost many lives, also the lives of children, as in any other war. The civilians in Chechnya have suffered much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radagast

Remember, though the war against Chechnya explains everything it defends absolutely nothing.

Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to get across. Trying to explain WHY is NOT a defence of the terrorists and their acts. I agree that it is totally unacceptable. But I also think that understanding WHY will help us in our struggle to not let it happen again.

Grey_Wolf · 09-05-2004, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artanis

I did not say any of these things. All wars are terrible, and I will not range them. But there is not to be denied that the war in Chechnya has cost many lives, also the lives of children, as in any other war. The civilians in Chechnya have suffered much.Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to get across. Trying to explain WHY is NOT a defence of the terrorists and their acts. I agree that it is totally unacceptable. But I also think that understanding WHY will help us in our struggle to not let it happen again.

Me being the guilty one for turning the discussion away from the atrocities committed by the terrorists and pointing it towards the cause of it all, I sincerely appologize.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 09-05-2004, 01:48 PM

No this is a interesting discussion.

jerseydevil · 09-05-2004, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

Me being the guilty one for turning the discussion away from the atrocities committed by the terrorists and pointing it towards the cause of it all, I sincerely appologize.

I don't see it as the cause actually. Chechnya is part of Russia and has been. It's like saying that if a state wanted to leave the Union - we should just let them. Why? Why should Russia give up Chechnya anymore than we should have let the south leave the Union? Chechnya is PART of Russia and it is their decision as to what they do with it. Russia did NOT start the war in Chechnya - the independent movement did. So if you want someone to blame - blame them. Britain didn't just let us leave the British Empire - we had to fight for it. Of course that's not even the same thing though - because we were just colonies at that time - not actually a part of Britain like Chechnya is actually a part of Russia.

Grey_Wolf · 09-06-2004, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I don't see it as the cause actually. Chechnya is part of Russia and has been. It's like saying that if a state wanted to leave the Union - we should just let them. Why? Why should Russia give up Chechnya anymore than we should have let the south leave the Union? Chechnya is PART of Russia and it is their decision as to what they do with it. Russia did NOT start the war in Chechnya - the independent movement did. So if you want someone to blame - blame them. Britain didn't just let us leave the British Empire - we had to fight for it. Of course that's not even the same thing though - because we were just colonies at that time - not actually a part of Britain like Chechnya is actually a part of Russia.

Of course, you're right. Russia doesn't want to break up into little pieces any more than the United States want to give up any of it's states. I was in the wrong here. I'm apologize for dragging this off-topic discussion out.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 09-06-2004, 02:16 AM

If everywhere did that then countries would either not exist or they would be the size of cities.

Radagast The Brown · 09-06-2004, 04:20 AM

Not Really. Chechnya is not an area populated by Russians, that just want to be seperated from Russia. It's a nation/folk/people or whatever it is in English, that has different culture, history, religion, language, etc. They were recognized as distinct people since the 17th century (or so 3 encyclopedias said, but they probably copy each other

), and fight the Russian many times in past, and tried to be free. It's suddenly 10 years ago that they decided to break off Russia.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 09-06-2004, 11:25 AM

But still just because they are different from the Russians they can't just decide to leave Russia.

Radagast The Brown · 09-06-2004, 12:05 PM

Why can't they? It's like the Empires in Europe 200 years ago - they rule other nations, which are now free independence countries - Greece, Serbia, Poland, etc. I think they should've gave Chechnya to the Chechens long time ago, but I also think that now Russia can't really give them their own country - of a principal not to give terror what it wants, which only strengthen it and encourage it.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 09-06-2004, 12:15 PM

It's part of Russia, why should Russia just allow them to leave.

Radagast The Brown · 09-06-2004, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

It's part of Russia, why should Russia just allow them to leave.

It's not exactly part of Russia, IMO. It didn't willingly joined Russia, but was conquered, 150 years ago. It's a nation, different from any other is the world - they are Chechens, not Russians...ethnic, as they're obviously citizens of Russia.
If they're different, they'd obviously want to have their own land, with their own government, language, rules, etc.
Russia didn't just allow them, and see what happens? Was it worth the land, that wouldn't otherwise affect any other Russian citizern? I don't think so. You might think it does.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 09-06-2004, 01:47 PM

Well, Wales is happy to be ruled by the English priminister, aren't they. Anyway even if they did deserve to leave Russia, they don't anymore. The terrorism just makes matters worse for themselves.

Radagast The Brown · 09-06-2004, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Well, Wales is happy to be ruled by the English priminister, aren't they. Anyway even if they did deserve to leave Russia, they don't anymore. The terrorism just makes matters worse for themselves.

So?

I'm saying that they have the right to be seperate of Russia if they want to.

As I said in a post some time ago, I do agree that now they shouldn't get independence.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 09-06-2004, 01:54 PM

They have to agree with the Russians first though, surely.

09-04-2004, 06:08 PM	#61
*HOBBIT* Saviour of Entmoot Admiral Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.) Posts: 61,986	hmm i actually agree with JD in this topic. __________________ President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares!

09-05-2004, 01:26 AM	#62
*Rían* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	Whew - targeting a school where there's lots of kids - really sick. Poor Russians __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

09-05-2004, 06:03 AM	#64
Radagast Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Merry old England Posts: 413	I do not buy the 'Russian Government is to blame' argument. Vladimir Putin was elected on the promise to end the Chechen problem, using force if neccessary. Therefore how can you blame the Government for giving the people what they want? If anything, blame the Russian people (not that I do). __________________ Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought.

09-05-2004, 08:40 AM	#65
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Well, I partly agree with Grey_Wolf when he says that the Russian government is the root of this conflict. And that is NOT the same as saying "they deserved it"! BUT, they have been leading a cruel war against Checknya. How many children have been killed in that war? I don't think Al Qaida would have been so present in Checknya without this war. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

09-05-2004, 01:48 PM	#69
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	No this is a interesting discussion. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

09-05-2004, 04:48 AM	#63
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	333 confirmed dead. 260 unaccounted for and presumed dead.

09-06-2004, 02:16 AM	#72
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	If everywhere did that then countries would either not exist or they would be the size of cities. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

09-06-2004, 04:20 AM	#73
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	Not Really. Chechnya is not an area populated by Russians, that just want to be seperated from Russia. It's a nation/folk/people or whatever it is in English, that has different culture, history, religion, language, etc. They were recognized as distinct people since the 17th century (or so 3 encyclopedias said, but they probably copy each other ), and fight the Russian many times in past, and tried to be free. It's suddenly 10 years ago that they decided to break off Russia. __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

09-06-2004, 11:25 AM	#74
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	But still just because they are different from the Russians they can't just decide to leave Russia. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

09-06-2004, 12:05 PM	#75
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	Why can't they? It's like the Empires in Europe 200 years ago - they rule other nations, which are now free independence countries - Greece, Serbia, Poland, etc. I think they should've gave Chechnya to the Chechens long time ago, but I also think that now Russia can't really give them their own country - of a principal not to give terror what it wants, which only strengthen it and encourage it. __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

09-06-2004, 12:15 PM	#76
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	It's part of Russia, why should Russia just allow them to leave. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

09-06-2004, 01:47 PM	#78
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Well, Wales is happy to be ruled by the English priminister, aren't they. Anyway even if they did deserve to leave Russia, they don't anymore. The terrorism just makes matters worse for themselves. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

09-06-2004, 01:54 PM	#80
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	They have to agree with the Russians first though, surely. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

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