Fox Hunting

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
The people who are for fox hunting are going to say what they have to in order to keep this from being banned.

You only highlighted one part. I noticed you didn't highlight this part...

They also point to research by Dr David McDonald at Oxford University's Wildlife Conservation Research Unit which suggests that the average duration of a hunt is 17 minutes.

You haven't been on a hunt either. You don't know what it's like. I'm anxious for those pics, JD... where are they?

I'm not bothering to look for them - you know how to do a search.

[Coney II]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Why have the hunts stopped? Did the citizens want it stopped?

That's all it took.......a few private landowners who got together decided that they didn't want anyone practicing bloodsports on their land. Farmers used to make good money from "backhand" payments on hunts........luckily a few didn't feel the need to make extra cash from some cruel entertainment.

It not only saddens me as well, but it totally embarrasses me. I don't mean any offense, but I had always thought that the US was a bit more civilized because of the Fox Hunting and such. Wow! I was wrong!!

No offence taken.......I've always known that America has a long tradition of hunting......but I thought the majority was hunting game not mindless sport . I had hoped that huting with a pack of dogs was a mindless pursuit of the English alone......which would give even more pressure to ban it......sadly, tis not so.

[Coney II]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

Never really thought you were too educated on the US. Now you have something else to be annoyed at us about.

[/B]

Then you'll be delighted to know that I'm gonna get fully edumacated in the wonerous ways of the US when I visit friends in late/early winter '04-'05 (there is even a possiblility I'll be staying for a while in beloved NJ!)

[Millane]

ive never know of hunting with dogs to eradicate foxes in Australia, ive hunted out on a friends farm and thats just been rabbits mainly but if we see foxes we shoot them...
JD i can gaurantee you that shooting a fox is a lot more humane than letting dogs get it, just think would you prefer me to shoot you or let the dogs get you...
i would not agree with any hunting for fun, whether it is with gun or dogs, i enjoy going shooting (havent done it for awhile though) but i wouldnt go out and hunt rabbits if they werent pests...
i dont really understand you bringing up rat poison, as far as i know people dont get kicks out of poisoning rats

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Millane
JD i can gaurantee you that shooting a fox is a lot more humane than letting dogs get it, just think would you prefer me to shoot you or let the dogs get you...

It depends if the dog breaks it's neck immediately or not. If your neck is broken - you don't feel anything and it's instantaneous. Whereas bleeding to death is worse - especially if it's not a clean shot. I don't think many foxes get shot right in the heart or head.

i dont really understand you bringing up rat poison, as far as i know people dont get kicks out of poisoning rats

Becuase - if fox hunting is cruel - wouldn't the way the rat is dying cruel too? or is there a difference because it's a rat?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney II
Then you'll be delighted to know that I'm gonna get fully edumacated in the wonerous ways of the US when I visit friends in late/early winter '04-'05 (there is even a possiblility I'll be staying for a while in beloved NJ!)

Well I hope you have a great time. Summer time see better to come to NJ - but there are a lot of holiday things. You can go see the Washington's Crossing of the Delaware and the reenactment of the Battle of Trenton or Princeton.

[Millane]

Becuase - if fox hunting is cruel - wouldn't the way the rat is dying cruel too? or is there a difference because it's a rat

i think it is worse because the foxes are dieing for someones enjoyment, rats are pests they need to be killed

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Millane
i think it is worse because the foxes are dieing for someones enjoyment, rats are pests they need to be killed

Pests are all in the eyes of the behiolder and if England has a fox problem in some areas - then the fox hunts aren't just for enjoyment.

NJ doesn't have a bear problem in all areas of the state - but the northwestern section does. We had our first bear hunt a couple of weeks ago for a 6 day period and their goal was to kill 500 bears. The didn't even get half that number though. Funny thing is - even though bears are repeatedly attacking dogs and getting into people's yards - there were demonstrations against the bear hunt.

[Millane]

hey im only against some hunting when there is no reason other than for someones enjoyment, and if there is a better method to kill with... i have no objections to killing foxes if they are a problem, i have, but i think that a gun is a better option than dogs.

[Artanis]

This is an interesting topic. I don't have very strong opinions about it, but I do have a problem with hunting animals if it is done solely for the pleasure and amusement of the hunters, as seems to be the case with fox hunting in England. Sorry Radagast.

In Norway we do not usually hunt foxes (Falagar they are present, I've seen a red fox more than once ), but color mutations of silver foxes and platina foxes are held in captivity and bred just for the purpose of making furs out of them, which I personally dislike just as much.

[BeardofPants]

Okay, just thought I'd mention this: I used to go hound racing with my oma and opa when I was younger, and what I noticed was that when the dogs finally caught their "prey"*, they generally used to grab and shake it, rather than administering a quick nip. Nor was it a single dog 'attacking' the prey. I have also witnessed my parents dog attacking and killing a kitten (stupid frickin' dog ), and it in no way administered a quick nip: it, again, grabbed the kitten around the neck, and shook it violently. The reality is that dogs come from hunting stock, and have a pack mentality. Whilst I do not doubt for a second that their technique is efficient, it is also not quite the quick painless nip to the neck.

*prey being some kind of fluffy fur 'animal' on a motorised pully that they had to chase around on a track.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Hound packs (as well as draghounds) other than Britain

Belgium...........4
France.............5
Germany........28
Holland............6
Italy.................3
Portugal...........1
USA..............191
Canada..........13
Australia.........23
New Zealand..29
India.................1
Kenya...............1
South Africa......2

I think a little perspective is needed here. I'd like to point out that having the hounds doesn't mean having the hunts. I highly doubt we can even have fox-huntings in Belgium. We have neither the space, the foxes, nor the tradition to do so.

For example, people can keep sled-hounds but such races are banned here.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You only highlighted one part. I noticed you didn't highlight this part...

So what if the duration is 17 minutes? What the hell does that have to do with what happens to the fox?

I'm not bothering to look for them - you know how to do a search.

chicken!

I'm not going to bother looking up what you obviously can't find.

[hectorberlioz]

Its wrong to hunt foxes in my opinion.
But not only is it wrong, it is also stupid and immature.
foxes are becoming extinct, and we should do everything in our power to prevent it.
hunting for sport is wrong, thats my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
But as Jonathan said earlier, when you see pics of it(hunting foxes) they only will show the worst ones(and the foxes in the pics looked like they'd been dead for awhile). I'm sure the foxhunters arent cruel, just foolish.
My final words here.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I think a little perspective is needed here. I'd like to point out that having the hounds doesn't mean having the hunts.

Yes, I was a bit surprised to see NZ on the list as well. I don't think we even have foxes? Anyway, I had a quick look around Hunt New Zealand, and it appears they only do deer, hare, and possum. I'll have another look and see if I can pull some other stuff up - maybe it's some obscure backward South Island thing.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Coney II
That's all it took.......a few private landowners who got together decided that they didn't want anyone practicing bloodsports on their land. Farmers used to make good money from "backhand" payments on hunts........luckily a few didn't feel the need to make extra cash from some cruel entertainment.

I'm glad that some have stepped up and stood their ground. We need more people like that in this world.

No offence taken.......I've always known that America has a long tradition of hunting......but I thought the majority was hunting game not mindless sport . I had hoped that huting with a pack of dogs was a mindless pursuit of the English alone......which would give even more pressure to ban it......sadly, tis not so.

I'm glad you didn't take offense.

I am shocked and sad that this blood sport is taking place here. Although, it seems that the practice of fox hunting here is not the same as in England. The hunters rarely catch their quarry and the goal is not to kill it. Though, I still have my own doubts about what is reported.

Here in Texas, it's game hunting that is popular. People use the meat to stock their freezers, using them for meals. One organization of hunters goes out once a year to hunt deer for the local shelters to feed the poor.

They usually keep the pelts and antlers too, but usually only as a decorative thing. It's not like the Native Americans that used every part for something practical in their lives.

I have been hunting once... for duck and goose. I had trained a former bf's chocolate lab for hunting and I wanted to see him in action. (He was the perfect hunting dog, btw.) I didn't shoot anything, but my former bf did... he got a nice goose, which we prepared and cooked.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
It depends if the dog breaks it's neck immediately or not. If your neck is broken - you don't feel anything and it's instantaneous. Whereas bleeding to death is worse - especially if it's not a clean shot. I don't think many foxes get shot right in the heart or head.

hmmmm... ripped apart by dogs, or shot... which to choose?

Becuase - if fox hunting is cruel - wouldn't the way the rat is dying cruel too? or is there a difference because it's a rat?

Do you know what 'ratting' is? You put a dog in a pit with a bag full of rats and you bet on how many rats the dog will kill before he tires out. That is also a blood sport, just like fox hunting is. Ratting is banned in the US and England (I think).

I don't poison rats for two reasons... first, I think it's a bad way for an animal to die. Second, if you don't find the carcass, it will start to smell and decompose and attract flies.

[Wayfarer]

It depends if the dog breaks it's neck immediately or not. If your neck is broken - you don't feel anything and it's instantaneous.

When was the last time you had your neck broken, jersydevil?

Seriously- it's actually very hard to get the clean break required for a quick, painless kill. And a partial severing of the spinal cord is excruciating (at least as I understand it from people who've had neck injuries of that sort)

Honestly, though. At least in my neck of the woods we eat what we kill, or at least /somebody/ does. There are certainly a lot of people that kill for sport, but they have the decency to make sure the meat gets used.

Bah. I think it's pathetic. They run around jabbering about how much fun it is to kill something, when they don't even have the guts to do it themselves. I say we take the whole lot of them and stick them in a gladitorial arena. Let them have their fun killing each other off.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Bah. I think it's pathetic. They run around jabbering about how much fun it is to kill something, when they don't even have the guts to do it themselves. I say we take the whole lot of them and stick them in a gladitorial arena. Let them have their fun killing each other off.

Isn't that called extreme wrestling today?

[Ruinel]

Here's a pic of ratting...

The lower class kept small fast agile dogs called TERRIERS of different breeds, to hold back the rats which was a big trouble in these days. Rat´s were caught and placed in cages , a pit was dug , bets were placed and the rats and terriers were released in the pit. The dog catching and killing the most rat´s was declared the winner and his owner went home a bit richer then when he came there.

The ratting were held as shown on the picture above , and the dogs fought one by one , under a certain amount of time ( usually 1-5 min). The absolute record were 180 rats killed inside that time.
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-76223/history.htm

Now, ratting was done for entertainment and pleasure... which would be considered a bloodsport. But killing a rat that was a pest in your home or farm, is not considered a bloodsport because you are doing so in the quickest and most efficient manner possible. And it is not for your pleasure or entertainment, I hope.