Gah politics! Middle East discussion

[markedel]

he point isn't that no arabs are allowed in Israel (such policies are reserved for arab countries) but rather that a Jewish state is necessary, and therefore there has to be a majority of Jews. The palestinians haven't really accepted this Jewish state idea-so there's terrorism.

[Elbereth Gilthoniel]

I could judge? I don't think so I have side in this subject eather.
you don't have to translate just to write in a simple words.
Markedel, who is he in your last post?
who ever he is I egree with him.

[markedel]

LOL the he was a typo

[Radagast The Brown]

Good explanation Markedel. Maybe afro-elf would understand.

[afro-elf]

That i understand

[Wayfarer]

An interesting thought... look at it this way:

Back in... whenever it was... it was decided that there would be a jewish state. The overseeing countries decided that half of the region that is now israel/palestine/lebanon/whatever would be jewish, and the other half would be arab.

The arabs rejected this proposal, went to war with israel, and basically got themselves wasted. Israel took all the land. This is now the disputed territory. ANd the jews have been giving it back piecemeal since then.

Now I ask you, if the arabs originally rejected a proposal that would have given them more land than they could get now, and went to war over it, exactly what is the chance of them deciding to settle things and coexist peacefully now?

[afro-elf]

Radagast the brown


I know that your english is poor so it might take awhile for you to get through the next few post.

But markedel perhaps you could respond to the following few post




1896
Theodor Hertzl, a journalist from an Austro-Hungarian origin
published Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State) advocating the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine or elsewhere.

1896
JCA (Jewish Colonization Association) starts aiding Zionist settlements in Palestine.

1897
First Zionist congress in Switzerland issues the Basle Program "calling for a home for the Jewish people in Palestine" and establishes the WZO (World Zionist Organization to that end.
1901
JNF (Jewish National Fund) set up by the 5th Zionist congress to acquire land (in Palestine) and 'make it Jewish'.

1904-1914
Second wave (around 40000 strong) of Zionist illegal immigrants arrive in Palestine and increase the Jewish percentage to 6% of the total population.

- May: The signing of the Sykes-Picot agreement dividing Arab countries/provinces between Britain and France!
- June: Sharif Hussein declares independence from Ottoman Empire and the start of Arab revolt against Istanbul.

1917
- November: The Balfour declaration - UK foreign minister declares support towards establishing a Jewish state in Palestine.



- 1919- 1923
- Third wave of Zionist-Jewish immigrants (around 35000) raising their percentage in Palestine to 12%, with land ownership at 3%.

1920
- April: disturbances start in Palestine. Five Jewish people killed and 200 injured. UK investigates and attributes causes to broken promises and fears of new waves of immigrants.
-

1921
- March: formation of the Haganah, Jewish underground terror organization
- May: Disturbances in Haifa protesting Zionist waves of immigration leading, among casualties, to 46 Jewish immigrants. - October: 1st British census in Palestine found total population to be 757182 , 78% of whom were Muslim Arabs, 9.6 Christian Arabs and 11 % Jewish (mainly new immigrants)



1924-1928
4th wave of Zionist immigrants (67000) arrives (50% of whom were from Polonia). This increases Jewish percentage to 16%, with land ownership up to 4.2 % in 1928).

1925
- Vladimir Jabutinsky's Zionist party calls for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine and east of the River Jordan. Stresses the military aspects of Zionism.
-

[afro-elf]

1929
- August: clashes over the Western (Alburaq) Wall i Jerusalem. Clashes led to 116 killed and 232 wounded among Palestinians (mainly by British fire) and 133 dead and 339 wounded among the Jewish side.
-

5th Zionist immigration wave brings 250000 immigrants raising their percentage to 30% and their land ownership to 5.7 %.
1930
-
1931
- Irgon, another Jewish terrorist organization, formed by Zionist extremists and those who split from Haganah. Led by Vladimir Jabutinsky.
-
.
- November: 2nd British census in Palestine finds 1,035,154 people. 73% Muslim Arabs, 8.6% Christian Arabs and 16.9% Jewish (mainly immigrants).
-
December: L French, UK development director, publishes a report about Palestinian Arabs who lost their land thanks to Zionist settlements.
1933
-UK foreign minister issues a report concerning the need to re-settle Palestinian farmers who were expelled from their lands in favor of Zionist immigrants
1
935
- October: Zionist revisionists leave the World Zionist Organization and establish a new one aiming at "liberating" Palestine and East Jordan.

-
- April: The Irgon, headed by Jabutinsky, re-organizes and calls for start of raids against Palestinians
-
July: Peel committee report recommends partitioning Palestine into Jewish state (33%) on best areas and one for Palestinian Arabs in addition to British protectorates including Jerusalem. Reports refers to forced transfer, if needed, of Palestinians from the 'Jewish' part.
-
July: Arab Higher Committee rejects the Peel recommendations, calls for Independence of whole Palestine with protection for the rights of all and the British interests. Revolution continues.
-
- April - August: Irgon (Jewish underground terror organization) starts offensive against the Palestinians killing 119. Palestinians resist killing 8.
- June: British officer Orde Wingate forms Special Night Units from British soldiers and Irgon terrorists to attack Palestinian villages.
-
- May: British House of Commons votes in favor of a white paper by minister of colonies M. MacDonald. The paper calls for: conditional independence of a Palestinian state after ten years, acceptance of 15000 Zionist immigrants a year for 5 years, then by Arab agreement. British official sources put the number of Palestinians killed in the revolt at 3500-4000 in addition to 500 Jews/Zionists.
-
.
-
1940 - 1945
- Over 60,000 Zionist/Jewish immigrants enter Palestine (over 20,000 'illegally' as determined by Britain who controlled borders). Jewish/Zionist percentage rises to 31% and land they control to 6%.


1943
- November: Britain extends the five year Zionist influx to exhaust the 75,000 permits according to its 1939 white paper.

1945
May 8: World War II ends.
- September: Zionist influx resumes, protected by the Haganah (Zionist terror organization).
-
- May: Anglo-America committee report indicates 61, 000 - 69,000 armed members in Zionist organizations Stern, Haganah and Irgon; declares special armies illegal, recommends 100,000 more immigrants and the cancellation of land ownership regulations. Palestinians strike in protest.
-

- November 30: The Haganah calls for Jews aged 17 to 25 to enlist for military service
- December: Arab League establishes the "Arab Salvation Army" from Arab non-regular volunteers, headed by Fawzi Qawikji.
- December 2: Palestinians declare a 3-day strike protesting partition. Disturbances result in killing of 6 Palestinians and 8 Zionists/Jews.
- December 8: Britain presents a recommendation to the UN calling for an end of its mandate on Palestine, immediate formation of a Jewish state and a Palestinian state two weeks after.
- December 8 - 17: Arab League political committee declares partition illegal and decides to supply the League Palestine Committee with rifles and volunteers
-
- December 21 - March 1948: Zionist organizations Irgon and Haganah start coastal ethnic cleansing of Palestinian villages
- December - January 1948: Arab Higher Committee forms local committees to defend Palestinian villages, towns and localities against Zionist cleansing.

[afro-elf]

- January 16: British report to the UN estimates 1974 killed during the period November 30, 1947 and January 10, 1948
- January 20: Britain says it'll hand over administration according to local majority in each area
- January 21 - 28: an extra 760 volunteers arrive to join Arab Salvation Army (ASA)
- January - March: Jewish National Fund encourages the expulsion of Arabs from Haifa. The Haganah attacks Palestinians near al-Hula lake (north of Tabariyya) and the Palmach (another Zionist armed group) attacks bedouins in An-Naqab.
- February 16: ASA loses near Bisan.
- February 18: The Haganah calls men and women aged 25 - 35 to enlist in 'military service'.
- - March 6: the Haganah announces general mobilization
- March 10: British House of Commons votes on ending the mandate on May 15. The Haganah drafts "Plan Dalet" (Dalet is Hebrew for D) for military operations in Palestine.
- March 18: American president, Truman, receives Chaim Weizman and promises to support the declaration of the Jewish State on May 15.
- - March 30 - May 15: 2nd coastal cleansing operation by the Haganah against Palestinians between Haifa and Yafa.
- - April 9: Deir Yassin massacre. Irgon and Stern terrorists kill 250 civilians in this village in Jerusalem district
- April 12: General Zionist Council decides to establish an independent state in Palestine on May 16.
- - April 27 - May 5: Irgon and Haganah intensifies shelling and ground offensive on Yafa (Operation Hamets) leading to expulsion of 50000
- April 30: Haganah captures all areas of West Jerusalem and expels Palestinians
- May 3: Reports say Zionist attacks left about 175,000 - 200,000 Palestinian refugees
- -

[markedel]

Whoa too much stuff at once, but not the worst propaganda ever. A few points to consider though while pondering.

A) The Haganah was a British recognized Jewish Self-Defense that rarely if ever attacked British or Arabs targets

B) Jordan was part of the original mandate and removed by Winston Churchill. Instead of being part of the Jewish homeland it became Jordan is 80% of the mandate's land area.

C) While Jewish immigration was restricted in 1930s Arab immigration wasn't. While Jews were dying in Europe their homeland under international law was shut to them

D) Jews accepted all partition plans despite the fact that they comprised far less area then promised under the Balfour decleration, the palestinians rejected them.

E) All Jewish settlements (notably those now south of Jerusalem-the Etzion bloc) were destroyed by occupying arab armies in west bank and gaza. Israel's record in such things aren't wonderful, but there are arabs living and voting in Israel, and none could live in Jordan.

F) After the war Jordan destroyed the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem and barred Jewish access to the Western wall

G) After the war arab countries shut the palestinians in refugee camps and refused to resettle them in their countries. The thousands (hundereds of thousands) of Jews from Arab countries who were expelled were settled in Israel as full citizens. One is currently the president of Israel.

H) Of the 600 000 Jews in Palestine before the State 6000 died in War of the Indepdance. That's equivilant to 3 million Americans dying today.

I) No palestinian state, authority etc. was set up in the West Bank or Gaza by arab states who were constantly rejectionist towards Israel.

Here's my view-The Jews after years of exile and 20 years of lobbying get international law to grant them a national home in palestine. The arbas riot and destroy traditional age old communities in Jerusalem and Hebron because they lack kibbutz defences. Britain clamps down on Jewish immigration to appease arabs. Jews die in Holocaust (Note, leading arabs like Mufti of Jerusalem were Nazi collaborators, great pictures I tell you). After barring immigration for a few years and interning holocaust survivors UN decides to grant Jews and Arabs a state. Jews see that they get 10% or so of orginal mandate get down on knees and say-the redemption is coming! 6 Arabs countries invade Israel. With smuggled Czechslovakian weapons and better leadership Israel wins. Lessons: If you start unjust wars you lose. If you lose wars whining and trying to retrieve what youl lost through more wars is stupid. But doing so through terrorism is extremly perceptive.

[afro-elf]

Thanks for that informative post

[afro-elf]

Radagast the brown no need to reply.
markedel gave me what i was seeking

[Radagast The Brown]

OK afro elf I won't replay to your last post (i meant before your last post...)
and all what you said was right (i'm learning that this year)

[markedel]

It is, I admit, one of the most lucid bits of pro-palestinian propaganda I have seen.

[Elbereth Gilthoniel]

what was all this long history things?
I didn't read it (it was too long)
Markedel, I'm not sure what did you said on the last post.

[markedel]

It was palestinian propaganda. I said it was particularly well-written clear and non hysterical propaganda.

[Radagast The Brown]

I can't understand on what did you write about.

[markedel]

Sigh, happy passover everyone, even if there won't be one in the middle east...

[Grey_Wolf]

One solution to the whole middle-east problem would be find a really good replacement to oil and gasoline. Then the whole world wouldn't be so dependent on the arabs for fuel and we could finally tell them keep their oil and shoke on it.

[markedel]

I'm impressed. The situation has gotten to the point where arafat gets what he wants. Oh well so much for the "war on terrorism," hello Munich.