06-16-2006, 05:34 PM | #61 | |||
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06-17-2006, 03:05 AM | #62 | |||
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And what sort of power did he have over Gollum, if it didn't change him one bit in his purposes? Gollum broke even his oath by the ring not to attack Frodo. Sure, Frodo was stronger than a a 4 centuries wreak, we can find some affinity between them and their destinies, but I don't see Gollum as dominated by anything else than his hunger for the ring. Indeed, Tolkien speculated that, if it wasn't for Sam's rather harsh treatment of Gollum, he would have sacrificed himself for Frodo - but that would be out of love. Quote:
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06-17-2006, 09:16 AM | #63 | ||||||||||
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But I think you right that he was unimpressed by strength of moral character. Quote:
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The Ring’s main power was to give it’s holder control over other wills. The Ring clearly scarred Frodo. So why wouldn’t it mark Frodo in this way? Frodo seems a bit ‘high and mighty’ after he first returns to the Shire. This isn’t a terrible thing, but it is a change in him. There are several instances of this. Here are a few: Quote:
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06-17-2006, 09:59 AM | #64 | ||||
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06-18-2006, 05:09 PM | #65 | ||||||||||
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So, what qualities did Saruman come to respect in Frodo? His newly acquired "wisdom" and good fortune - really it was extremely good luck that the quest didn't fail miserably. Quote:
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06-18-2006, 06:07 PM | #66 |
Elf Lord
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ringbearers recognise other ringbearers and can see their rings right?they cannot be witheld from other ringbearers ...
saruman had made a lesser ring... Yet he doesn't see one of 'the three' on gandalf? or was it only the bearer of the one that other rings could not be hidden from? |
06-18-2006, 06:30 PM | #67 | |
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But there are worse things. How could Gandalf bearing Narya, NOT understand that Bilbo had the One? |
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06-18-2006, 06:40 PM | #68 |
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I remember that Olmer all but proved that Gandalf did know that it was the One, almost immediately after Bilbo revealed it to Gandalf. I can’t recall where he said this, but the evidence was pretty much undeniable. It seems this was just a slip by Tolkien to me, but if we look at things from a story-internal perspective...
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06-19-2006, 12:34 AM | #69 | ||
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Frodo initially was much like Smeagol or Sam, but, during the Quest, he became more vulnerable to the Ring's appeal. Saruman was right: Frodo, has "grown" and became "wise and cruel" Not really "cruel", of course, but, indeed, his mind became more Man-like, than Hobbit-like when he started to " train his will to the domination of others". Oh, I don't know about "Man-like". Is wisdom indeed a "human" possession? In Tolkien's world it is indeed the elves and Gandalf who have wisdom--Frodo perhaps has beomce more "elvish" in outlook, a vestige, a sign, of the light of the Undying Lands. Quote:
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06-19-2006, 12:49 AM | #70 | |||
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[QUOTE]There was a great change in Frodo during the Quest. Saruman was wise enough to notice it: Why would Saruman feel respect for Frodo? For his high moral qualities? For his love of peace? No, he respected the qualities of a ringlord the hobbit had acquired.{/QUOTE] So, respect for life, hopes in redemption even after all that Saruman had done, are qualities of a Lord of the Rings? Only 3 "ringlords" exhibited those qualities: Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf. Sauron, the 9 Nazgul, and the dwarves who had had rings certainly didn't. Quote:
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06-19-2006, 12:53 AM | #71 | ||
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06-19-2006, 12:11 PM | #72 | |||||
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06-19-2006, 03:04 PM | #73 | ||||
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Last edited by Landroval : 06-19-2006 at 04:01 PM. |
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06-19-2006, 06:10 PM | #74 | ||
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As for the Numenoreans during Sauron's stay in the island, they did trust him, though they knew full well his true identity. The dwarves at Erebor didn't believe the promises of the messenger, because they knew that he came from Mordor - it was no secret. Now, in case of the future nazgul, he could have come in any fair guise - as an Elf (was it easy to tell an incarnate Maia from an Elf? - next to impossible for a human, I think). He could have told them anything: for instance that he was an Elf, sent by Gil-Galad and who wished to give one of the Rings to the King of Men for safekeeping. Where is the "discernible foulness"? Last edited by Gordis : 06-19-2006 at 06:14 PM. |
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06-20-2006, 01:05 AM | #75 | |
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The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! What does "LOL" mean? |
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06-20-2006, 04:23 AM | #76 | ||
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fëa, pl. fëar 'soul, indwelling spirit, of an incarnate being' (MR:349,470). Also cf. WJ:405. hröa, pl. hröar 'body (of an incarnate being)' (MR:350,470). Also cf. WJ:405. (Editorial glossary to the Ósanwe-kenta: "MR" is Morgoth's Ring. "WJ" - War of Jewels) Here is from Myths Transformed: Quote:
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06-21-2006, 12:34 AM | #77 | |
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06-21-2006, 12:45 AM | #78 | |
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06-21-2006, 01:25 AM | #79 | |||||
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06-23-2006, 03:42 PM | #80 | |||||||||||||
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I interpret it this way: it could give invisibility and turn a human into a wraith - like the 9, it could make a dwarf greedy - like the 7, and, if wielded properly, it could "kindle hearts" as Narya and do whatever Nenya and Vilya were able to do. Galadriel says: Quote:
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Last edited by Gordis : 06-23-2006 at 03:45 PM. |
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