03-05-2006, 04:48 AM | #61 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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HOWEVER, I still like Blackheart's angle better here. No offense! But you know me.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 03-05-2006 at 04:51 AM. |
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03-05-2006, 04:50 AM | #62 |
of the House of Fëanor
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^^^^
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
03-05-2006, 04:51 AM | #63 |
Elf Lord
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You bet .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
03-06-2006, 04:26 AM | #64 | |||||||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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I would disagree. I point out below that doing evil in the name of good is not good... it is a morally relatavistic viewpoint of necessity. If you are stating this, then how can you reconcile that MLK could be a moral absolutist while rationalizing that he is harming someone "for their own good" ??? Quote:
WWII was not a good cause. It was a necessary cause. That is the failure of the "Evil is good because it is necessary, and necessary is good" rationalization. Was it really neccesary to firebomb Dresden? Or Tokyo? War may be a necessity at times, but it is never a "good cause"... Quote:
What you are saying when you say he had absolute values is that under no conceiveable circumstance would there ever be a time when he would think it expediant or NECESSARY to ignore those values. That is not human. Quote:
I'll go one step further and state that one of the reasons MLK was an effective proponant of Civil Rights was BECAUSE he was possesed of a degree of moral relativity. Advocating the breaking of unjust laws because they are a "code that is out of harmony with the moral law" is counter to the long held idea of divine right. What if the Pope had expressed a position favoring segregation? For goodness sakes... the man's name is Martin Luther... Just because someone is pointing to a moral value that has more merit than another moral value doesn't mean they are holding an absolute moral value; on the contrary it means they are engaged in RANKING the RELATIVE merits of two conflicting moral values. Anyway this has become a side issue to the question of a utopia. I won't bother to address it unless it somehow gets related back to the topic ___________________________________________ Quote:
No but the fact that they would have grown up in a world without conflict would mean de facto that the person they became would never have existed... Quote:
Lets start with the idea of still needing to learn... WHY? Ignorance is a form of imperfection... No one will need to learn anything, they'll already know it all... Of course there wouldn't be any conflict, no one will need anything. Desire would be extinguished...Possibly no one will even need to interact with others... Harmony, good sir, is not the result of a million instruments all playing the same note... but the sweet interaction between notes that could conflict, but instead find a common ground. Quote:
Stating that those types of tendancies are a detriment to the gene pool is also just plain silly. If human males had no nurturing instincts whatsoever we'd be in pretty sad shape now wouldn't we? Curiousity would also cease to be expressed. At least as curiousity. The traits would likely come out in some other direction impossible to predict. Eventually, after enough time for selection to take effect, if the conditions which cause those tendancies to be expressed as a curiousity behavior pattern were to re-emerge, the behavior pattern would no longer be expressed as curiousity, but as something else. Quote:
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Not to mention that as such it would precisely meet my criteria for a slice of conflict in an otherwise "perfect" utopia... Quote:
But I still think it's damn near hilarious to have this argument in a thread about Dante's Inferno... ____________________________________ Quote:
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And since I enjoy humans, I disagree with your statement that the world would be a more enjoyable place, and insist that you define "better"... That's a joke by the way...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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03-07-2006, 02:04 AM | #65 |
Elven Maiden
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,309
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Oh my.. I think everything seems to be ok for now. I`ll check back later. Carry on.
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03-07-2006, 04:48 PM | #66 | |
Elf Lord
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But, I don't make the final judgment on anyone. Unlike some politically correct types I can think of...
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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03-07-2006, 05:11 PM | #67 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
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not to comment on the entire diatribe
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Churchill had to let the Luftwaffe bomb a city in the UK or risk them changing the codes; Dresden was bombed because of its strategic infrastructure. The fire storm that developed was unpredicted. Tokyo? The buildings were mostly wood; same senario. ....remember Pearl Harbor?
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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03-07-2006, 05:37 PM | #68 | ||||||||||
Elf Lord
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The Christian argument is that evil is derivative. There is not one thing purely evil because evil is derivative and must have a good upon which to exist - even if that existence is destructive (say, Lord Voldemort, for example). Evil was a potential, that is, the choice of the lesser good when a higher was possible, or self-will instead of obedience, until it was actualized by personal choice. The Adversary aspired to be God and to take the throne for himself, derivative creature that he was. That actualization brought evil into existence. And, so, Adam (humanity). Unable to know evil as potential without actualization, humanity chose to make it existent and knowable in the purely human limitation. Still so chooses, by the way, - empirically verifiable! Quote:
For illusion, you must go to Hinduism or Buddhism or modern materialism-only, though in different modes of understanding the illusion(s). Quote:
People who become fully human aren't going to be restrained by the state of affairs considered normative due to human experience in a fallen world. And Christians are, avowedly, going to achieve divinization, partaking of the divine nature, the life of the Holy Trinity. There's an eternity of curiosity and discovery to be had and not limited to merely what we can conceive of as questions now. There is a reason humans only use about 10% of their grey matter! Quote:
I like humanity, it's people I can't stand is a PEANUTS truism from Lucy. But God doesn't merely like humanity, He loves us enough to die for us and expects us to catch the disease and so love our fellow humans whether we like them or not. Quote:
And, we aren't promised utopia as Christians. We are promised that we shall be as Christ. That job description was full of conflict and pain and misunderstanding as well as eternal joy unspeakable. I opt for the fully human, divinized, resurrected, regenerate Life - not the merely human constrained by my imagination and limited world view.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 03-07-2006 at 05:45 PM. |
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03-07-2006, 05:45 PM | #69 | |
Elf Lord
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See the subtle distinction? Probably not very subtle, but there must be something tricky about it, because people seem to miss it an awful lot in the "Modern World". Evil maybe be necessary, but it can't be good. If it were good, then where's the distinction? Only in an imperfect world can you have such utter nonsense as: doing evil in the cause of good... Any time an act that harms someone is "necessary" you really have to examine it with a magnifying glass. Otherwise any "good" that comes out of a harmful act is likely to be outweighed by the evil... Oh and I'd say dropping incendiaries on civilian population centers is definitely something that deserves to be under intense scrutiny before anyone says that more good than evil, or if you prefer growth than harm, comes from such an act... When does necessity outweigh moral or ethical imperatives? In the most familiar form, when do the ends justify the means? Is it justifiable to burn thousands of "enemy" civilians in order to prevent hundreds of friendly combat casualties? If not, then what's the ratio? 1:1? 2:1? 5:1? What's the best return on our investment of good for evil? At what point does an act become so "Evil" that it outweighs the Necessity, and become UNnecessary? These should be the kinds of questions that military planners lose decades of sleep over. Otherwise they might get bumped down a level or two... thought frankly ,IIRC, in Dante's Inferno Intentions count strongly. Something I find dissatisfying, since I feel that results are much more indicative of the forethought someone puts into their actions....
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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03-07-2006, 05:59 PM | #70 |
Elf Lord
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Blackheart,
cross-posted; please see above. Gracias!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
03-07-2006, 06:07 PM | #71 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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Makes no distinction to me if was their fault.... I'll adress the rest and specifically why it doesn't matter to me later.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 03-07-2006 at 06:11 PM. |
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03-07-2006, 10:46 PM | #72 |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
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Well I, for one, wait with bated breath for more from you, Blackheart! I always get stoked reading your counterpoint arguments; your style is the bomb, you are an excellent debater, and I literally ALWAYS look forward to what you have to post in these threads. You, sir, are a fantastic breath of fresh air in these argument threads. Have I mentioned all this before? Well, it always bears repeating! So glad you're here in Entmoot!!!
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
03-08-2006, 11:47 AM | #73 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
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{QUOTE=Blackheart] Sorry but I don't subscribe to original sin. I'm aware of the philosopical concept however. I do not however agree that there is empirical evidence that all humans are tainted by sin. First you would need to supply some empirical evidence that sin actually exists... a rather difficult proposition. Are you sure you aren't speaking allegorically?[/quote] Slavery, prostitution, drug dealers, blue-collar criminals, white-collar criminals, al-quaeda, the Peron regime in Chile in the 80's, the communists in any country you can name (but including Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, etc., etc.), capitalists in the absolute pursuit of unmitigated profits, Hitler, Nazis, Fascists, Mussolini, Idi Amin, child molesters, rapists, murderers, those who engage in biochemical warfare, adulterers, liars, cheaters, self-aggrandizers, racists, etc. Enough? Sin is glaringly obvious. REcall Einstein's comment: "Whether or not you can observe a thing depends on the theory you use. It is the theory which decides what can be observed." That is true of physical reality and certainly true of spiritual reality. I am not speaking allegorically but practically. Watch your local evening news and tell me that the human tendency to corrupt everything is not merely an observation of Dwarves and Elves in Tolkien. Quote:
All societal valuations of moral standards come about by the valuation of specific moral qualities. E.g., the Spartans, courage; the early Romans, familias et patrias; the Communists, abdication of the individual to the state; the Republicans, subsumption of the state to the individuals of the state - but all are merely emphasizing one aspect of the moral above others, not inventing new systems of morality. Do you know of a culture that truly valued cowardice as the pre-eminent virtue? Can you imagine such? Quote:
Your point is, I suspect, that you do not like the reality that what one does as indicative of what one is has longterm consequences. The Ted Bundy's of the world are fortunately uncommon, but their behaviours define them. How should it be different for you or I merely because we are not serial murderers? As Jesus pointed out, the origin of murder or lust or avarice is the human heart in hate, diordered desire, or worship of the material. Sadaam's use of nerve gas against the Kurds originated in his mind and heart and will before it was actualized; so are our faults and failures. Do you really think that the world would equate all behaviours as equal and without content?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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03-08-2006, 04:22 PM | #74 | |||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
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Continued briefly due to time constraints.
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But regardless of all the semantic quibbling, your objection misses the point. If pain is a necessity imposed by some cosmic entity, then it CAN follow (and I make the argument that it DOES follow) that evil is a necessity (of the human condition) imposed by an outside cosmic agency. Quote:
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It sounds like you've crossed into thinking that I equated curiousity with evil. I pointed out that there was no NEED for curiousity in a realm where everything is already known, and that continued display of such a trait would lead to disorder. Why would you be curious about something you already know everything about? Saying that you could be fully human in such a realm is a bit of a misnomer, if you regard curiousity as part of the human experience. Quote:
But you have still failed to tell me why such a creature would need such a trait as curiousity, if they partake of omnescience... As a side note, humans use 100% of their brain. They only activate about 10% of it at a time (what is refereed to as "attention"). The odd notion that 90% of our brain is unmapped and unused, lying fallow, is a misunderstanding from people who have misquoted or misunderstood how basic neural networking functions. Quote:
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 03-08-2006 at 04:36 PM. |
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03-08-2006, 05:48 PM | #75 | |||||||||||
Elf Lord
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But that's still beside the point, if you are engaged in ranking different values, you are engaging in relativism. Quote:
And yes, I would say that it's not humans that fail, it is the society they exist within. Asking which came first, humans or society is like asking whether chickens or eggs came first. It is meaningless noise. Humans do not exist outside the bounds of society, unless you are going to somehow clone then and drop them off as an infant in the wilderness and expect them to survie... Quote:
You CAN however use them as correlational items. But that is different topic, since my original objection was to the word empirical. You haven't even tried to point out why these things are considered evil, nor have you considered if there were any mitigating factors due to necessity. Quote:
The objection was not to the existence of sin, but to the idea that you can EMPIRICALLY verify the existence of a philosopical or spiritual concept. It would be of little purpose to deny the existence of a concept like sin in a discussion about Dant'es inferno, now wouldn't it? The concept of ORIGINAL sin however, is a distinction between two philosophical constructs. The idea that all humans are tainted from birth is objectionable to me, because it bases the flaw on something humans have no control over, the past. To hold someone accountable for something they have no control over is not an act of justice. The closest concept to it which I will concede to, is the idea that if humans exist within a flawed society, then they are rapidly converted to the "sins" of the society they exist within. Quote:
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Yes new values do arrive. And they are integrated into, and on top of, old traditions. New values do arise, because the world is ever changing. They get related back to earlier traditions, because traditions are useful for certain things, one of them being a comparison of the relative value of "values"... Quote:
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Since you are postulating the existence of a divine justice, one would assume that it would take some concept of the idea of a fair punishment. Or even rehabilitation. Even the worst individual that has ever existed, lets take your example of Ted Bundy, given the postulated existence of eternity, the worst things that he ever did will be temporary. Therefore, no matter what punishment is chosen, to make it eternal makes it unjust, because of the disproportionate effect. Quote:
WHAT does that have to do with the idea that eternal punishment even roughly approximates justice? Quote:
And stated quite firmly that the imposition of an absolute moral standard does MORE harm than good... which is another way of saying that it does more evil than good. So no I don't really think that all behaviors are equal, since that was my original point... Obviously NEITHER did Dante, since he postulated several different layers of hell... though frankly one is hard put to choose any of them as less harsh, since they are all eternal... I seriously think you are missing the entire point of the original discussion, which was whether or not avoiding sin was always a good thing. Which is how we got onto the discussion of necessity. If it is necesary, then it is unavoidable. If it is unavoidable and necessary, then avoiding it completely may actually NOT be a "good" thing. Hence the exhortation to "moderation in all things" Which was countered by resorting to a utopian ideal. Much of the following discussion was related to the problems of perfection and remaining human within the framework of a utopian ideal. In other words a continuing discussion of the problems of imposing the absolute upon humanity which exists within an imperfect world. But the discussion seems to have moved away from the original point. I have tried to point it back towards the original thread, that being a discussion of the philosophical merits, or lack thereof, of Dante's idea of hell... To restate some of the salient points of the side discussion: I pointed out that pain was a necessary precursor to growth and learning. Pain is not neccesarily evil. Pain is not equivilant to harm, pain being a temporary phenomenon, whereas harm is "permanant" and stifles growth. You can roughly substitute the terms growth for good, and harm for evil... Those are all semantic distinctions. The meat of the matter is that eternal punishment would seem more of a harm than a growth factor. In other words, more of an evil than a good. People are objecting that it's not god's fault that they are punished eternally, it's the fault of humanity, because humanity has at it's core original sin, or some other flaw. To which I have been pointing out, bullshit, humanity did not design this system under it's postulated rules. To hold someone accountable for circumstances outside their control is not an act of justice. Nor is it an act of justice to assign a permenant harm as punishment for a temporary pain. Since this has become a long and involved discussion (or threatens to) I won't bother to address any of the other side issues anymore. Problems with the eternity of a utopia or applying eternity to human traits are just a mirror image of this issue. Absolute values or the existence of the absolute are a tangent, that only relate because enternity is an absolute concept.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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03-08-2006, 08:45 PM | #76 | |||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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[QUOTE=Blackheart]All you have done is provide a list of atrocities, social problems, and individuals who were considered evil. No where have you pointed out what makes these individuals or problems sinful. You just assume that they are, because you are assuming the existence of sin. You cannot provide a list of examples and point to them as empirical evidence for a class or category which you cannot define empirically.{/quote] I'll try to remember this when someone accuses me of being immoral for my opposition to gay 'marriage', adultery, drunkeness. Think they'll by that I'm not sinning against the zeitgeist by identifying sin but merely listing examples of atrocities, social problems, or individuals. Nope! They're going to immediately appeal to their conception of "justice, fairness, tolerance, inclusivity" or whatever brand name they label their concept of morality to oppose me. IT will be an appeal to an absolute standard, however, and one they hope I share so as to allow an argument to re-prioritization. [QUOTE=Blackheart} You CAN however use them as correlational items. But that is different topic, since my original objection was to the word empirical. You haven't even tried to point out why these things are considered evil, nor have you considered if there were any mitigating factors due to necessity.[/quote] Necessity is a mutha, eh? It justifies all behaviours? So any violation of necessity would be empirical evidence for what? I don't need to point out why these things are considered evil, BH, because you and everyone else knows they are when they happen to you or your family or your tribe or your nation. It's only in the cozy comfort of your monitor's glow that you think otherwise. Quote:
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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03-09-2006, 03:07 AM | #77 |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
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* balh, blah, blah, wordy, wordy, jibber-jabber-blah blah bl - *oh, what? Sorry, was dozing off there for a second. Was - was inked saying something? Hmmph, must've dozed off when his post came on...
I love this what Blackheart says here; it is so quoteworthy that it goes in my own private journal of collectible sayings & thoughts: " To hold someone accountable for circumstances outside their control is not an act of justice. Nor is it an act of justice to assign a permenant harm as punishment for a temporary pain. "
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
03-09-2006, 01:21 PM | #78 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
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wow - I just looked in on this thread, and I must say I hope no one ever accuses me of making long posts again, because I'll just point them to this thread
*gets out Dante* Hi Blackheart! How have you been? And congrats on going over 5k, Lotesse!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-09-2006, 01:40 PM | #79 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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I just took the test and ended up in Purgatory, but scored high in level 3 and moderate in levels 5, 7, and 8. Low to very low in the rest. But some of those questions were worded poorly and very hard to answer.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-09-2006 at 01:41 PM. |
03-09-2006, 02:37 PM | #80 | ||
the Shrike
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