02-15-2005, 05:41 PM | #61 | |
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No evolution debate here, people, if you want to resurrect that old duck, find the right thread (I'm sure there are quite a few about it around here somewhere. ) or start a new one.
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02-15-2005, 05:42 PM | #62 | |
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EDIT - sorry, cross-posted with Earniel. I don't want to get into it anymore in this thread, either - just wanted to correct a few things
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-15-2005, 10:05 PM | #63 |
Quasi Evil
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Well you got to sneak in a post so let me just do one quick one in reply myself. Fossils exist (the equivilent of super nova light) and we know enough from current life forms to extrapolate about the fossilized ones.
Now back to breweries err.. i mean homosexuality...
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02-16-2005, 10:00 AM | #64 | ||
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I bumped the Creationism/Evolitionism thread.
And now back to our regularly scheduled program... yay for gay, I say!
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02-16-2005, 02:25 PM | #65 | |
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So… a government health agency is putting on a program about suicide among homosexuals and transgendered people but they aren’t allowed to actually mention “homosexuals and trandgendered” people in the presentation. Seems the push from the top is not only don’t let em marry and don’t let em have the same rights we have but marginalize them even when it comes to a critically important life and death topic so that we don’t have to be exposed to hearing that terminology. Under the rug you go a little more… And out of our sight so we can live normal lives without being troubled by hearing terms like “gay” and “transgendered”. Accept your second class status will you already.
I expect all you folks who rail on and on about the PCing of society to be outraged by this. I expect all you folks who say we need to restrict their rights because we care about them to be outraged at this. I expect all you folks who don’t want your government big-brothering how we think and talk to be outraged about this. Equal time right? Quote:
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02-16-2005, 04:19 PM | #66 |
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Why were the words taken out? It's not clear. There's an innuendo why the words were taken out, but I don't go for innuendoes (for example, since they said there were "several" requested changes, only showing one isn't fair. And including a faith-based suicide prevention certainly is good - the VAST majority of people in America consider themselves "religious"). I think it looks like it may be some twisted PC-ness of not singling out gays - as they said, "inclusiveness". I wish there was more information.
BTW, I came across several articles (not Christian-based, so keep your hair on) that are claiming that the increased suicide rate among gays is based on a flawed study, and there really is no increased suicide rate. That's a very interesting thing - anyone heard anything about that? It actually goes against one of my arguments about how homosexuality is inherently unnatural, too, and thus would probably cause more suicides. I wonder what is correct in this important and tragic area - increased rates or not?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-16-2005, 05:12 PM | #67 |
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I think this much ado about nothing. The suicide rates are data. It happens they are about sexual behavioural groups other than heterosexuals. If they hadn't changed the title then they would have been pilloried for not being inclusive enough. They did and it's still an offence against the non-heterosexual. This is known as a s...l....o.....w news day.
And its not like this was a big conference which individuals with the problems of being GLTB were attending; it was for providers. And I'm sure the precis of the talk that was available on printout or online didn't use those words, so how could the poor psychiatrists and psychologists figure it out? I mean at all my conferences I never get agenda and course/lecture descriptions and I wander aroung the multitude of offerings looking for something to fill up my CME hours! Since the populations being the way they are, one could argue that the vast majority of heterosexual suicides were marginalized in the original title (providing as they do the baseline rate), ... but who cares? If you need to feel victimized as part of self-identity, any straw in a whirlwind must do...even on a s.....l....o...w news day, or perhaps particularly in these.
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02-16-2005, 05:51 PM | #68 |
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Are you guys missing the point on purpose? The program was FOR gays and transgenderds. Why not include that in the title? And its not like people simply forgot to and then the gay rights folks were yelling about it. Not at all. it WAS originally included and they HHS people were PRESSURED by more powerful forces above them... *pause*... to ELIMINATE that kind of language from this one specific program. It would be like if the Clinton administration had forced the Interior Department (or whoever would do it) to drop the word "American" from an "American History" symposium or something because that term offends certain people. You guys would be IRATE! There would be looting in the streets.
And Rian how come when you find out that your tax dollars are being used to promote a program dealing with suicide among gays that you change your tune NOW and say oh well its not actually a problem among gays? Were you implying that its a waste of money to focus on it? or that you think focusing on suicide specifically with gays is an unfair extra right?
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02-16-2005, 06:15 PM | #69 |
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IR, it says clearly that it was a conference for providers on suicide prevention. I find no evidence that it was for the public. Since I have to regularly attend CME (continuing medical education) classes, I know how they set up these conferences and the individual lecture/symposium schedules. On arrival and registration the attendees will be given a syllabus for the entire program, precis of offered subjects (titles and brief descriptions), and opportunities to register for limited venue events. To argue that one single person would be in any mode harmed by their provider's inability to find this conference (if they wanted to attend it), is ludicrous in the extreme. I hope the average provider of these services is a notch or two above the average journalist who writes this tripe!
Your analogy with History is not a good one as set up. But if you imagine it as an American History Teachers conference with a title of Interior Department History rather than American Interior Department History, it might work out the same. All the teachers (providers) looking for that subject (specific conference) will be able to find it if they wish to register to attend. There will not be a crush of 10th to 12th grade HS students wandering hopelessly around the meeting place searching for the AMERICAN Interior Department History conference.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 02-16-2005 at 06:18 PM. |
02-16-2005, 06:27 PM | #70 | ||
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IRex, you have completely misunderstood me!
Calm down now and let me re-phrase things, and get rid of your assumptions about what I think. (I often misunderstand you, too, remember?) Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-16-2005, 11:34 PM | #71 | ||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-16-2005, 11:42 PM | #72 | ||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 02-16-2005 at 11:43 PM. |
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02-17-2005, 12:55 AM | #73 |
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I think that the program should have kept the mention "gay," "lesbian," "bisexual" and "transgender" as it was.
Given the amount of stigma that the society puts on LGBT people, and the fact that the LGBT youth is disproportionately unlikely to have family support, I expect the suicide rate to be much higher among LGBT youth. I don't think that the higher rate of suicide can in any way be construed as to support the thesis that homosexuality is wrong. I think that the fact that even the words ("gay," "lesbian," "bisexual" and "transgender") are considered unacceptable by some branch of the government is a big example of the stigma that causes the suicides |
02-17-2005, 03:29 AM | #74 | ||
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You really think I'm mean, don't you? I came across the articles a week or so ago, IIRC, and filed it away in my head to think about and hopefully research at a later time. When you mentioned that article that mentioned suicide rates among gays, OF COURSE it popped back into my head, and I mentioned it here. It's that simple. Sheesh! What, do you think I was suppressing it before? If I wanted to suppress it, why would I bring it up now? What motive did you think I had? Why did you think that I mentioned it now, besides the fact that the subject came up? I really can't think of a motive that you think I had
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-17-2005, 09:17 AM | #75 | |||
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02-17-2005, 12:50 PM | #76 |
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Stigma does not cause suicide. How else do you explain the vastly larger total number of non-GLBT suicides? By profound depression, overwhelming life-events, and auto-eroticism gone awry, etc, etc. One may reasonably ask why the rate is higher in the GLBT population. It is ludicrous to fall for the "society made me do it" rap. Individuals decide to do this, not societies. Some societies ritualize it and accept it and even expect it (eg, hari kari ). You might make that argument but absent the code of conduct of samurai and the like, this rationale does not work, IMHO.
Sui - Latin sui self + cide kill + self-kill(ing) I do not mean to diminish the problem merely to point out that the claim that society is responsible for personal acts of self-destruction is to abnegate the possibility that the individual chooses to end their life or is responsible for their life. If, by a vicious twist of logic we apply the argued principle that life-not-worth-living justifies abortion, why should individuals choosing to act out retroctive self-abortion be denied the right to their judgment that life is not worth living? How do you then argue that all life is worth preserving against the individual's choice (as is the case for suicide)? Isn't that a societal imposition on the alleged "right to die"? Which takes precedence and why?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 02-17-2005 at 12:51 PM. Reason: speeling |
02-17-2005, 01:49 PM | #77 |
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FYI, and RAYOR! That agenda thing again....
From mental disorder to civil-rights cause INTERVIEW: Psychiatrist and Princeton law professor traces the advances of the gay-rights agenda in science and the law to a common source: political intimidation by Marvin Olasky PRINCETON, N.J.-A big contributor to the gay movement's political success is the portrayal of homosexuality as an orientation over which individuals have no control. Jeffrey Satinover, author of Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth (Baker Books, 1996) and other books, has practiced psychiatry since 1986 and come to a different understanding, which he explained at a recent conference of the Witherspoon Institute here. Dr. Satinover is a graduate of M.I.T. (Humanities and Science), Harvard (Clinical Psychology), and Yale (Physics), and received an M.D. from the University of Texas Medical School. He presently conducts research into complex systems at the National Center for Scientific Research at the University of Nice in France and teaches civil liberties and constitutional law part-time at Princeton. WORLD: You've argued, against today's conventional wisdom, that the idea of "sexual orientation" is a fiction. What's the scientific evidence? JS: A nationwide University of Chicago study of sexuality in America in 1994 concluded, ". . . it is patently false that homosexuality is a uniform attribute across individuals, that it is stable over time, and that it can be easily measured." Studies across the globe that have now sampled over 100,000 individuals have found the same. We now know that in the majority of both men and women, "homosexuality," as defined by any scientifically rigorous criteria, spontaneously tends to "mutate" into heterosexuality over the course of a lifetime. The proportion of people who adopt a homosexual identity and the length of time they persist in holding on to it are affected primarily by environmental factors clearly identifiable in these epidemiologic studies. These factors-deemed "cultural" or "demographic"-include effects such as social networks, education, early sexual experiences, childhood sexual abuse, and cultural beliefs. WORLD: How and why did the American Psychiatric Association misrepresent the evidence concerning homosexuality? JS: In 1957, with quiet political support largely from the prominent UCLA psychiatrist Judd Marmor, Evelyn Hooker, an experimental psychologist (her expertise was with mice, not people) at UCLA, published a scientifically bogus paper that supposedly showed no differences in the psychopathology of homosexual and heterosexual males. In the late '60s she chaired a task force that excluded anyone who believed that there was anything in the least problematic with homosexuality-meaning she excluded the entire body of clinicians who until then had devoted their careers to the subject. She similarly ensured that all its mental-health members were collaborators of Alfred Kinsey. Under the guise of its being a "mental-health" panel, and using the false cover of the Kinsey Report (which claimed to be scientific, but which even then had been long condemned by the American Statistical Association as invalid), Hooker's Task Force issued a set of "policy" recommendations based on the claim that homosexuality had been shown to be normal, a degree of bisexuality was the universal norm, and whatever unusual distress homosexuals might display was due to social prejudice. The elimination of all forms of social prejudice against homosexuality was a "mental-health" prerogative for the nation. By the early '70s, Judd Marmor was on his way to the vice presidency of the American Psychiatric Association. He and a number of allies in the APA arranged to have outside gay activists disrupt APA meetings to protest the persistence of homosexuality as a diagnostic category within the APA's list of disorders. Eventually, these protests led to a series of meetings with the APA's "nomenclature committee" at which "research" was presented purportedly demonstrating no connection between homosexuality and psychopathology. These presentations were tendentious, the "research" consisting largely of Hooker's bogus work and Kinsey's data. With that, along with political pressure and the "civil-rights" argument, homosexuality was removed from the diagnostic manual. Anyone who actually reads the studies examining the association between homosexuality and psychological disturbance will find a very strong association. What has never been clear until, perhaps, recently, is why. Perhaps the same problems that cause increased psychological distress also cause homosexuality. Perhaps homosexuality is an intrinsic psychopathology. Perhaps the social stigma experienced by being homosexual causes the psychological distress. Perhaps some unknown proportion of each. Perhaps some unknown proportion of each and a complex, nonlinear interaction among them over time. None of the early studies addressed these very obvious questions. They merely presumed the ideologically correct responses. continued...
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
02-17-2005, 01:53 PM | #78 |
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continuation...
WORLD: How have Supreme Court decisions fit in with such misrepresentation? JS: The mental-health organizations have submitted briefs to courts at every level, and have profoundly corrupted our understanding of human sexuality tacitly via their general influence. They influence judges' understanding before they become judges so that when a man or woman becomes a judge he is, for all purposes, an ignoramus with respect to homosexuality, full to the brim with sentimental platitudes. These platitudinous outlooks "feel" deep, but are astoundingly shallow (the concept "sexual orientation" is an example-it is a "stopthought" that won't bear five minutes of serious scrutiny before dissolving into a welter of contradiction). But when a judge is handed an amicus brief that bears at its end a list of say five or 10 well-respected national or state mental-health professional organizations-he's impressed. Then he starts reading, and it's "The Emperor's New Robes." In learned-sounding terms, he's fed back all the nice-sounding pieties with which he's become familiar and comfortable. He doesn't have to stop and think for a second. He just has to be "nice." So, over the years, the concept of "sexual orientation" has worked its way into the culture and up the court system to the level of the U.S. Supreme Court and in certain key state Supreme Court cases, especially in the Goodrich case in Massachusetts. The key U.S. Supreme Court cases are Romer and Lawrence. Leaving specific variations aside, all three approach homosexuality from the point of view of civil liberties-a misframing that goes all the way back to Hooker and the history I've mentioned. It has been critical for the mental-health guilds to stand before the courts and say, "You see, your honors, we in particular, who are the very experts of what constitutes a mental disorder, proclaim that sexual orientation should not be discussed as a condition that is problematic and changeable, it is a normal and immutable state of the human being and therefore should be discussed in civil-rights terms, like race." WORLD: How should the understanding that homosexuality is not a stable trait affect public policy? JS: The entire legal argument (same-sex marriage, homosexual rights) rests upon the civil-rights argument, and this is based on the concept of "suspect class status." That's a technical term referring to the idea that you can define a group of people in some reasonable, meaningful way, and this definitional "boundary" results in their being subject to invidious discrimination. The obvious example is being black. The way "suspect class status" is determined isn't totally mathematical, but it isn't totally fuzzy either. There's a good deal of common sense to it. We want to avoid having people cry "discrimination!" just when it suits them, in order to game the system. For example, I couldn't apply to the University of Michigan Law School as "black" under the recently decided affirmative-action decision because, having just returned from two weeks in the Caribbean, I've got such a terrific tan. Since, to quote the University of Chicago study, "it is patently false that homosexuality is a uniform attribute across individuals, that it is stable over time, and that it can be easily measured," you have absolutely no basis whatsoever for building a "suspect class" out of it. WORLD: How should that understanding affect the way individuals react to those who identify themselves as homosexual? JS: What you're left with are human beings, no different than you or me, who are, of course, sexual beings. Like you and me, their sexuality is broken in a broken world. The notion that "homosexuals" are in effect a "different species" (different genes) is ludicrous beyond belief. There is not the slightest evidence for that as anyone who actually reads the studies (not reports on the studies) knows. Of course as one grows and changes, one "grooves" a pathway that becomes embedded and increasingly difficult to alter. Of course a different innate disposition places one at a different "risk profile" for all sorts of different paths in life. So what else is new? It is also true that people do sometimes want to change, and some do and some don't. This is true of everything. It's also true that few good things in life are easy, and no achievement is ever perfect. That said, we should remember that homosexuality has risen to the top of the social-policy agenda because of the utter wreck we all have made of family life over the past 50 years. This horror cannot be blamed on anyone but us. -* END http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...p?storyid=2094
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 02-17-2005 at 01:54 PM. |
02-17-2005, 03:00 PM | #79 |
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So... the concept of homosexuality is simply a left wing ivory tower conspiracy some 50 years old. The truth is that gays are simply mentally handicapped heterosexuals in need of fixing. This is just great stuff...
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02-17-2005, 03:48 PM | #80 | |||||||
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If instead you are giving to the etimology a definitional primacy, then I don't agree. That's not the way in which language evolve Quote:
By the way I disagree with the English usage of saying "commint suicide" because in English one "commits crimes" and suicide is not a crime in my ethical systme. Therefore I think that it would be more ethical to call it "to suicide" or "to choose death" or "to choose to stop living" Quote:
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