11-20-2002, 11:04 PM | #61 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
What are people's opinions on the "Deeps of Time" phrase? I know over in a related thread, "Did Ilúvatar make Melkor Evil", we've been discussing how we think Ilúvatar is outside of time, and the people of Arda are in time.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-21-2002, 12:36 PM | #62 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
In our universe time is a property of the substance of the universe space time. This time does not exist outside the limits of the universe. I would suppose it it the same in Ea, which is a fictional version of our universe. What ever is ousite has a different time, which may be of an altogether different nature, more different than just being similar to ours but asynchronous.
|
11-21-2002, 01:26 PM | #63 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Quote:
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
|
11-21-2002, 06:23 PM | #64 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Yes. If you think time is universal, and is for Ilúvatar as well, then you get into the question also of how anything came to be. How was Ilúvatar created? How did the first creation begin? Ilúvatar couldn't have created himself . . .
But if you accept another dimension, then everything becomes more reasonable. Things just are; they don't have to be made. Arda is a creation in which many of these rules have been alterred. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-21-2002 at 06:24 PM. |
11-21-2002, 06:31 PM | #65 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
Iluvatar can't possibly be contained by time, if he created it. And if he didn't create it, and he is contained by it, where did it come from?
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
11-22-2002, 01:38 AM | #66 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
|
The "Deeps of Time" reads to me as though it were a time far from the beginning or end of time analogous to the depths of the ocean. I don't see Iluvatar as creating time expliciting, only being unconstrained by linear time.
I wonder about the "Flame Imperishable". It seems to be something outside of Iluvatar that he uses as a source of power or a tool. It may only be a sort of cosmic forge, but it is not clear.
__________________
There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
11-22-2002, 01:44 AM | #67 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Actually, there your reasoning is a little flawed, Wayfarer. I agree with your conclusion, that Ilúvatar is outside of time, but I don't agree with your means of reaching that conclusion. Some things simply are, without being created. If you assume that Ilúvatar's character is righteous and that he hates evil, then it would be stretching things the "Means justify the ends" argument by quite a bit to say that he created evil. Ilúvatar didn't create himself. There has to be another dimension in which things simply are, without having to become. Time could be one of those things.
However, I don't believe it is. Otherwise, Ilúvatar shouldn't be able to have any knowledge of the future. The only explanation in that case for his knowledge of the future is predestination. And I don't think either you or I accept predestination. Besides, if there was predestination, and Ilúvatar's character is righteous, then there shouldn't be any evil. Only free will can explain evil, unless you attack Ilúvatar's character. And the possibility of free will is explained by Ilúvatar's being outside of time. If any of you readers disagree with this, please move to the "Ilúvatar created Melkor evil?" thread. That is one of the prime things we've been discussing there, although we also get into other things. |
11-22-2002, 01:48 AM | #68 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
I remember reading something like 'the flame is with Ilúvatar " - I'll try to find it.
To me, I get a picture of "the deeps of time" as almost an ocean, but in a slightly different way; almost as if Ilúvatar created a "Deeps of Time" area and "immersed" Arda in it - so the inhabitants of Arda are "in" time, but Ilúvatar and other parts of His creation are outside of it. Just kind of a murky picture I have in my head - does anyone else have a similar picture? (IOW, it's not a particular time, but it contains all times)
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-22-2002, 01:54 AM | #69 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Oh, here it is - the 5th paragraph from the beginning:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 11-22-2002 at 01:58 AM. |
|
11-22-2002, 01:57 AM | #70 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
|
I did see that but with and within are different. If it resides with him it only means the Ainur can't get to it for their own purposes; that he controls it.
__________________
There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
11-22-2002, 02:04 AM | #71 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Yes, they are different words - I wonder if it refers to (hang on folks! Remember Tolkien was Catholic! Really, I'm not trying to "force" things here, it's just a thought that just occurred to me) the Holy Spirit? Hmm, I had never thought of that before. This is a thought-provoking thread. Anyway, it is definitely some type of sustaining force that resided only with Ilúvatar.
Did you see my edits, Cirdan? You posted before I was thru editing. I think you said you didn't have Morgoth's Ring yet, tho - you were hoping to get it for Christmas I hope you get it! I'll find that section tomorrow, unless someone beats me to it. Goodnite all! I'm turning in early for once
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 11-22-2002 at 02:06 AM. |
11-22-2002, 02:50 AM | #72 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
I thought something along those lines too, RÃ*an, but slightly different. In John it says something very, very similar to "The Flame was with Ilúvatar." "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . ."
Quote:
This, based upon observations, I think is a reasonable hypothesis. What the Word is, I don't precisely know, but I think the Flame is meant to be the same thing. This hypothesis isn't proven until we find a quote somewhere that says the Flame is Ilúvatar, and I'm not trying to force this idea on anyone. Nevertheless, I agree with you RÃ*an; it is interesting to think about. Quote:
I know we're not discussing the Bible. However, considering that Tolkien was a Christian, it could be the same sort of thing. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-22-2002 at 03:08 AM. |
||
11-22-2002, 03:23 AM | #73 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
I don't think it's important to know what the Flame is exactly. What's important is what it enables Ilúvatar to do: To create forms of life that are independent of himself and with free will. Aule could create the dwarves, but he did not have the Flame and the dwarves to begin with had no will of their own, but were merely puppets. Independent will were given to the dwarves by Ilúvatar alone.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
11-22-2002, 05:49 PM | #74 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Yes, the dwarves example is interesting. And I really like Aulë's humility, and his willingness to even destroy his work, and how Ilúvatar then accepts his work and gives it life. But more on that in Chpt. 4! A little bit from Morgoth's Ring, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Author's Note #11 (i.e., JRRT, not CRT): Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 11-22-2002 at 05:51 PM. |
||
11-22-2002, 05:59 PM | #75 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
||
11-22-2002, 06:07 PM | #76 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Here's the MR quote about Varda - it's from Myths Transformed II, where JRRT is fiddling around with the idea of the round earth and the sun and moon around before the two trees, etc. :
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 11-22-2002 at 06:09 PM. |
|
11-22-2002, 06:20 PM | #77 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
I never really saw the Flame Imperishable as part of Ilúvatar. I alsways saw it as a sort of tool, one that only Ilúvatar could wield or create.
__________________
We are not things. |
11-22-2002, 08:07 PM | #78 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Yes, I think I agree with you guys now that it's separate from Ilúvatar, but as Eärniel and Cirdan said, only Ilúvatar can wield/control it.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-22-2002, 08:46 PM | #79 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
The falme imperishable could be the Tolkien version of the holy spirit/ghoast part of the chistian trinity. it appear to serve a similar purpose with spect to the creation of sentient beings.
|
11-25-2002, 01:35 AM | #80 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Does anyone have any other comments from the supplemental sources?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |