America and Its Culture

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

It astounded me that you would.

Originally Posted by Mari

I would also like to know which statement of mine made you feel culturally inferior, because it was never my intention to do so.

But I'm hearing a lot of people, in this thread, who are following a notion of "culture" that I think is archaic. It's that which I am attacking.

There are quite a lot of "Americans" who, in the US, would have no trouble identifying their "traditional dances." They've been hauled off to church basements for the "Greek festival" or the "Italian festival" or had to sit through innumerable slides of Aunt May's trip to Ireland. But, sometimes only when they travel, they find themselves at a loss to explain "American culture", because they realize that it's broader than their own personal one.

That's not a weakness, that's a strength.

We clearly can't get into a debate here about the sources of Japanese history, but I doubt you'll find many Japanese who would say they merely imitated the West.

And, all due, for you to be shirty about it is pretty funny, considering that in a discussion of culture you exempted the Dutch. That just tells me there are no regular Dutch posters, here.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by sun-star

You guys are defending yourselves from an imaginary attack - why do you feel the need to prove your cultural superiority by caricaturing the rest of the world as hidebound and stale?

But they are not defending themselves against an imaginary attack. The attack has been made, and it's been made in their school systems. American education has been HIDEOUSLY inadequate in trying to present and value American culture as it is, and the result is that Americans, on the whole, grow up with a sense that there's a chasm between ordinary life and culture that they personally, will seldom get a visa to pass.

Perhaps other systems do a better job with it, but you've only to look at issues around funding the arts to see the impact, here.

As for me, I was attempting, poorly, it seems, to attack that notion, that sense of the gap. If that resulted in my "characterizing the rest of the world as hidebound and stale" I apologise. I was trying to address that sense that only paintings that are hung in the Louvre (or its local equivilent) constitute culture.

My heart is really with the tenets of the Arts and Crafts and Craftsman movements. I'm all about art in daily life.

[hectorberlioz]

So SisAunt, do I finally see an issue we've agreed on?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

So how's Arizona RÃ*an? Notice any cultural differences between it and California?

Oh, definitely - Arizona has more of the "wild west" independent hang-loose attitude, kinda like Texas.

[jellyfishannah]

Originally Posted by sun-star

That seems to be what this thread is really about. I don't see a bunch of smug Europeans looking down their noses at American culture here, or anywhere else for that matter. You guys are defending yourselves from an imaginary attack - why do you feel the need to prove your cultural superiority by caricaturing the rest of the world as hidebound and stale?

Sorta sad, right? But I've met a lot of people who do look down their noses at America and most of them ARE American. (Of course, since I live here)

I'm sure this thread wasn't made to defend something imaginary. Thankfully, people on here are all sensible and friendly and that's why I like it. It just seems to be that American culture is hard to define.

One huge peice of culture--and my personal favorite of any culture--that we've forgotten to take into account (or maybe someone has) is our music. Bluegrass, blues, jazz, rock...etc. We have a very rich history of music.

[Mari]

Okay, so perhaps we should turn the entire debate around:
The problem of countries like America, The Netherlands, England (and whichever other countries may fall in the category of having a lot of different cultures making up one big one) is not that they do not have a culture, but that the culture has grown so big that it has become hard to see and to describe, also to others, because they can also see part of their own culture in it. (That's why it's called multi-cultural)
However if you take countries like Japan (great example ) and China or other countries that try to preserve their own (ancient) traditions and values (and also integrate that protection in their schoolsystem), they only know and see one culture as their own.
I still have some more thoughts on the matter, but I have to go now.
But I'll be back mwuhahaha! (Sorry, had a movienight yesterday )

[The Gaffer]

I dunno about the "preserving your traditions" thing. It is good to keep up groovy stuff from the past, it gives us a broader connection to our roots and identity. But it's often associated with an elitist and/or exclusive attitude, not to mention a Canute-like refusal to accept change.

To me one of the great strengths of American culture has been the way it has preserved and built upon the various traditions of various immigrant groups. Music, esp jazz and blues, is a GREAT example of that, JFH!

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

not to mention a Canute-like refusal to accept change.

I don't think you're in a position to mourn Hector's historical ignorance if you're going to cast unjust aspersions on poor Canute...

[The Gaffer]

Never mind Canute, that Macbeth was a right **** wasn't he?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

"A Thane of Cawdor-like refusal to accept change" has no ring to it at all.

[sun-star]

If Canute had been that resistant to change, he probably wouldn't have been so good at conquering countries...

[The Gaffer]

OK, this occurred after a bit of discussion on the pledge of allegiance thread er I mean US Presidential thread.

I've been to the States a couple of times now, NY and Chicago, and one thing that really struck me was the flag: it's everywhere. Literally. At one stage we were driving through Long Island (not noted as a, er, redneck neighbourhood as far as I know), and the gammer and I had a contest to see who would be the first to not be able to see a Stars and Stripes somewhere (on other cars, on billboards, signs, houses, etc etc etc).

Now, I loved it there. People were very friendly and wandering the streets of Manhattan at midnight on a Saturday felt safer than the centre of Oxford.

But I wonder what's with all that flag worship? Obviously other countries have flags too, but none that I've been to have anything like the visibility of the Stars & Stripes.

Any comments?

[Nurvingiel]

1. The American flag is a really, really gorgeous flag. I mean look at it. The choice of colours, the excellent star on blue field design, the bold stripes. It's also a flag with a lot of meaning, reflecting American history (13 stripes) and the current country (50 stars). If Puerto Rico became a state, the flag would be updated to have 51 stars. Plus, Americans are generally an overtly patriotic group of people. What I mean is they're patriotic and not afraid to show it (unless they're travelling abroad, hahaha ). The lovely flag provides an excellent way to express one's patrioticness (what the heck is the right word for that?)

2. My brother worked on Long Island last summer, and hopes to have the same job this summer. He had a fantastic time, and met some rad people.

[Insidious Rex]

Just a cultural peccadillo I think. To most Americans the flag is almost like Christmas decorations at Christmas. Its something people like to have around but they don’t necessarily think about it too hard. Its just part of the background for many of us. I honestly don’t even notice the flags myself unless they are highly unusual (gigantic or a bikini version or something). Many buildings both public and private will have a flag flowing just as way of expressing fealty to county (some will also have state flags and maybe county flags). We’re a patriotic bunch but we tend to express our patriotism in rote symbolic ways that don’t require too much thinking so flags work and the occasional fire works. And if you thought Manhattan was bad you should try the Midwest!

So are you saying you don’t see very many Union Jacks around the UK?

[Nurvingiel]

I've been there and I hardly saw any Union Jacks. (Another lovely flag.)

And us Canadians do fly the flag, but not as much as you guys. Needless to say, our flag is also completely gorgeous.

[hectorberlioz]

Apperantly some of our fireworks are made in China...too ironic for my taste...

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

very nicely with the "What is American (U.S.) culture?" question.

Most U.S. citizens are only "American" recently. They have relatives all over the world. And they're "American" only as a political entity. You can live in Wales, and be Welsh, and it's not all about your system of government. But it's only our government that makes us a unit.

Because of this, issues around the stars and stripes can be kind of fraught.

For example, there was a Seneca Womyn's Peace Camp, like Greenham Common. And someone (a supportive neighbor) gave it an American Flag to fly.

There were 2 days of debate. I mean, 48 hours straight through. Grueling. Women objected to the flag as isolationist, that it represented Imperialism, didn't include activists from other countries...it was ugly. Finally, the decision was made to fly the flag, along with any flag women wanted to bring or make that they felt represented them more fully.

But there was no doubt that the Flag, per se, represented something.

I guess the country is still in the throes of figuring out what.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Union Jacks. (Another lovely flag.)

And us Canadians do fly the flag, but not as much as you guys. Needless to say, our flag is also completely gorgeous.

Both nice flags. I like the coinage, too.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

our flag is also completely gorgeous.

Absolutely...I've always liked your flag a lot. Big Red Maple Leaf, nobody else has done a leaf!

[The Gaffer]

Those are all great answers; thanks I like the story about the protest camp.

I like it too. All those stars and, er, stripes. It's very optimistic somehow.

No, you hardly ever see Union Jacks here in comparison. And where you do, it is part of some sort of political issue: Northern Ireland or parts of the West of Scotland where it's being used to assert Ulster's Britishness. In the 70s and 80s it got a "bad name" because it was paraded a lot by far-right racist political and criminal groups.

Lately, you are probably more likely to see the flags of our constituent countries (Scottish Saltire, English St George's Cross, Welsh dragon thingy).

The last couple of World Cup (football) type events England went mental with people sticking St George's Cross flags on their cars and houses, but then after a couple of weeks Beckham would miss a penalty, they'd get knocked out by Portugal and the flags are all ragged and drookit and end up in the bin.