05-21-2005, 03:16 PM | #61 |
The Intermittent One
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was it not said somewhere that an ancient sire of the line of mearas was one stallion of orome's? which, in my humble reasoning, make the elven horses from the valinorean strain and the mearas akin to each other, would it not?
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05-21-2005, 04:45 PM | #62 | ||
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Quote:
Perhaps, but how could we know? Quote:
But, anyway, the elven horses and mearas would be distant relatives, two far diverged lines. Asfaloth BTW could be descended from the horse Glorfindel has brought with him from Valinor in the 2nd age. (If he brought one with him of course). |
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05-21-2005, 05:06 PM | #63 |
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We could look at their speed in relation to the Nazgûl's. If they Nazgûl's horses were Mearas, then Valinorean horses would be quicker. That is unless Asfolath was the chief. The Nazgûl could just about keep up with Asfolath, but couldn't catch him. According to your 'timelines' Gordis, Shadowfax was slightly but noticably quicker than the Nazgûl, but they couldn't keep up with him, quite aswell as they could with Asfolath. From this I would draw the conclusion that Valinorean horse's were quicker, unless Asfolath was their 'king'.
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05-21-2005, 06:01 PM | #64 |
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Uhhh... I am confused
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05-21-2005, 11:21 PM | #65 | ||
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Quote:
I am not sure if I buy what is being stated, but I think the reasoning is similar to your previous argument. Quote:
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Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) |
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05-22-2005, 04:41 AM | #66 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Mithrand1r is right. I was trying to determine wether Mereas or Valionorean horses were quicker.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-22-2005, 03:19 PM | #67 | |
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Quote:
Yes, sure! Shadowfax >Asfaloth>nazg horses If Asfaloth is the Chief of elven horses: Shadowfax >Asfaloth>nazg horses>=elven horses |
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05-26-2005, 11:12 AM | #68 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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Sorry guys I got lost in this discussion...
If we return to the original post: Why do you think it was the Witch king who got safely out of the river along with his horse and not another nazgul? |
05-27-2005, 02:50 PM | #69 | |
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Probably the three Numenoreans could swim better then the rest. So it makes sense that the WK got out of the river safely. As for the horse, it may be not his horse that was saved. Or he could have had the best horse of all the Nine. Anyway, I believe it was the WK that returned to Mordor ahead of the others. |
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09-06-2006, 08:01 PM | #70 | |
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It seems I was right after all.
Now I am a happy owner of "Tolkien Reader's companion by Hammond and Scull and there is a new Tolkien's quote about the only horse surviving the flood. This quote is from the same writings as the "Hunt for the Ring" in UT, dated around 1954. Quote:
The isn't that sweet: "if there was any in the world in whom (Sauron) trusted it was the Lord of Angmar"? |
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09-07-2006, 04:30 PM | #71 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
So yes, your uncontested belief that one of the Nazgul rode the surviving horse from the ruin of the Fords to Mordor is "right" in the sense that at some point Tolkien himself entertained the idea (but note that even CT didn't include it in UT, hard in my mind to put a lot of weight on it as if it were "canon" to borrow Butterbeer's term), an idea with which no one found fault. FB |
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09-07-2006, 05:16 PM | #72 |
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borrow it all you like ...but tis hardly my term ...
nice quote...but at best it seems a 'yes and no' kind of gig... as the man says ..probably. course' what Bath-time Sauron thinks and the Lord of Angmar think are entirely ( posit-ably) and potentially entirely different things you'll note ..also no proof of being mearas neither (Big hello to FB and Gor though ) Best, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 09-07-2006 at 05:18 PM. |
09-07-2006, 05:36 PM | #73 |
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Forkbeard and Butterbeer have got good points, as in it doesn't answer whether a) the horses were mearas and b) whether that later horse was the same one.
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09-07-2006, 05:44 PM | #74 |
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well said Mr jams!
so...where do you stand on the IF The witch king took and mastered the ONE ring (the ring to rule all others) with sufficient time ere Sauron could effectively reply .... could he have overthrown him? Last edited by Butterbeer : 09-07-2006 at 05:45 PM. |
09-08-2006, 12:00 PM | #75 |
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That isn't related to the matter at hand, but anyway. I don't think so because although he was a wraith, he still had Man desires, strengths and weaknesses. In fact, i do't think anyone below a maiar could, because of the amount of Sauron's will in the ring.
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09-09-2006, 11:07 AM | #76 |
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Well I am glad that at least part of what I said was proven true.
The rest was neither confirmed, nor proved wrong. Even so, Forkbeard hastened to declare the source non-canonic . |
09-09-2006, 04:18 PM | #77 |
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it's the beard part ...
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09-09-2006, 04:25 PM | #78 | |
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ahhh...so - you think this independent "power" is non-transferable, despite the obvious and undeniable concerns of Sauron or the lustful scheming of Saruman (who of all the miar had studied these things). also- why then fear Aragorn? ... as Miar Gandalf clearly conjectures is the likely result of Sau's haste and concern due to Arargorn revealing himself (in other guise) as the living heir with the re-forged sword via the Palantir ...after, note you, as rightful heir, forcibly mastering the stone directly against Sauron's will and control? You will need better arguments than a vague, i think not, Mr jams! best, BB |
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09-09-2006, 04:57 PM | #79 |
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Well, it's like a drug, isn't it. If you have the chance to tke it, and you say no, then that's it,it won't affect you again.
Exactly. He was Isilador's heir. The one who had defeated him before. Of course he's going to be a bit worried. And looking back at your post, no, i don't think the Witch-king could overthrow him with time, with the Ring. He would become it's slave.
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09-09-2006, 07:02 PM | #80 |
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how can the Master thus become the slave?
The issue posited Mr Jams was not would the ring master the Lord of Angmar? ... but IF the Witch King mastered the ring, would he then overthrow Sauron? ... bearing in mind as master of all the rings he controls them all and any as are foolish enough to then wield them. and sauron without rings? best, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 09-09-2006 at 07:07 PM. |
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