Was the Ring Evil? - Page 4

Beren3000 · 08-22-2004, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

There is no need to have a devine intervention for the sake of good. Good will triumph over evil or otherwise with an equal balance.

Have to disagree there. IMO, it's divine intervention that allows the balance to tip in favour of Good. Otherwise, evil (more tempting and apparently more enjoyable) would have the upper hand almost all the time.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 08-22-2004, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Have to disagree there. IMO, it's divine intervention that allows the balance to tip in favour of Good. Otherwise, evil (more tempting and apparently more enjoyable) would have the upper hand almost all the time.

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying here. I don't want to get into a religous debate, but what I mean is: Tolkien tied our world into his. In his world IMO, heaven and hell were on earth. Devine intervention (the Valar and Maiar) in the wars against good and evil were beneficail to the outcome of the war and the final results. Devine intervention was easier to come by in that aspect. However, since Tolkien tied his world into our own world, devine intervention is not as likely when there is an equal balance of good and evil coming from the same race. Remember that Tolkien's wars involved several races, not just humans. Perhaps species is a better term in this case.

Beren3000 · 08-22-2004, 07:09 PM

I stand corrected! After all, I wouldn't wanna face that infamous stick of yours

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 08-22-2004, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I stand corrected! After all, I wouldn't wanna face that infamous stick of yours

LOL! Ah now, don't let that stop you. I am trying to debate here. But, if you spam or flame, I just may have to WHAP you.

BeardofPants · 08-23-2004, 02:10 AM

SpamofFlame? Must be my cousin.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 08-23-2004, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

SpamofFlame? Must be my cousin.

Leave it to you. I'm editing.

umbardacil · 08-23-2004, 01:01 PM

i thought the ring was made of gold mixed with saurons blood. The combo made some kind of hybrid-super evil gold.dont know where i heard that though.

Attalus · 08-23-2004, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by umbardacil

i thought the ring was made of gold mixed with saurons blood. The combo made some kind of hybrid-super evil gold.dont know where i heard that though.

I do not think that Sauron had what we know of as blood. We do not know much of how he made the Ring, only when and why.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 08-23-2004, 04:33 PM

Yeah it says something about him mixing his cruelty and malice in with it.

Haradrim · 08-23-2004, 06:18 PM

But did he mix his cruelty and malice with the gold in the ring or with the spirit that dominated the ring. Its almost like he trappeda super powerful spirit inside the golden ring. Also if the gold was tainted thats not the golds fault. So originally the gold that created the rign was good then it wasa tainted by no faulkt of its own and then it became a ring and then the evil spirit was implanted in it. Also someone said Melkors presence was still in the gold. So you could argue that it is not the gold that is evil but the spirit that is dominating all gold. Its kind of sad how much I think this through.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 08-23-2004, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haradrim

But did he mix his cruelty and malice with the gold in the ring or with the spirit that dominated the ring. Its almost like he trappeda super powerful spirit inside the golden ring. Also if the gold was tainted thats not the golds fault. So originally the gold that created the rign was good then it wasa tainted by no faulkt of its own and then it became a ring and then the evil spirit was implanted in it. Also someone said Melkors presence was still in the gold. So you could argue that it is not the gold that is evil but the spirit that is dominating all gold. Its kind of sad how much I think this through.

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Haradrim · 08-23-2004, 06:46 PM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The ring is not evil. The spirit embodying the ring and the spirit embodying the gold are evil but not the ring and not the gold. IT was just an innocent bystander who happened to be taken over. Poor little ringimudgit.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 08-23-2004, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haradrim

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The ring is not evil. The spirit embodying the ring and the spirit embodying the gold are evil but not the ring and not the gold. IT was just an innocent bystander who happened to be taken over. Poor little ringimudgit.

Okay, that's the last time I look up a hard to find quote to get a poster to conceed that doesn't conceed. Just for that, I get to WHAP you with my stick. WHAP! WHAP! WHAP!

Radagast The Brown · 08-23-2004, 07:09 PM

I don't see how can a Ring have any personallity, though, or mind.

I mean, it didn't have mind before Suaron messed up with it - so the mind was evil from the beginnig, from the first thought to the last. There was, IMO, no time for the Rign to develope a good personallity.

Haradrim · 08-23-2004, 07:16 PM

First off what gave the ring time to be evil. In my scenario which is yet to be totally and utterly refuted.

(jk) According to the others gold was tainted by Melkor. TO answer that. Yes that is true. But was the tainting in fact maybe part of the spirit of melkor. So the gold isnt evil the spirit embodying it was evil. Then Sauron makes it into a ring. No evilness there. and then he embodies the ring with his own evil. SO therefore the ring and the gold were embodied. Taken over by evil but they were not evil. (phew)

Beren3000 · 08-24-2004, 02:38 AM

I personally think that after Sauron's "cruelty and malice" were mixed with the Ring, they became so mixed with its original nature of gold, that the whole essence of the Ring (gold and "spirit") became one, evil being: the EVIL Ring.

Haradrim · 08-24-2004, 02:44 AM

But i have thought of another question. Did he mix his cruelty withthe gold or did he mix his cruelty with the spirit embodying the ring. Ah.. Ah... yeah this is getting tough...

I think he mixed it withthe spirit which would make more sense.

Radagast The Brown · 08-24-2004, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haradrim

First off what gave the ring time to be evil. In my scenario which is yet to be totally and utterly refuted.

(jk) According to the others gold was tainted by Melkor. TO answer that. Yes that is true. But was the tainting in fact maybe part of the spirit of melkor. So the gold isnt evil the spirit embodying it was evil. Then Sauron makes it into a ring. No evilness there. and then he embodies the ring with his own evil. SO therefore the ring and the gold were embodied. Taken over by evil but they were not evil. (phew)

Of course, the Gold itself wasn't probab;ly evil; it was gold, didn't have mind, and couldn't be either good or evil. With the power of Suaron - evil power - it had mind. Evil mind from the beginning, in my opinion, as the mind was created as if from a side-effect of the transferring of power from Sauron to it.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 08-24-2004, 12:14 PM

The gold was tainted and therefore evil. The spirit that used the gold to create the Ring was evil. The place it was created in was evil. The spirit that went into the Ring was evil, and therefore, the Ring was evil.

Haradrim, why don't you make an argument that (how could the place it was created in be evil.) I mean it was just dirt, and a mountain of fire, a valcano.

Attalus · 08-24-2004, 01:43 PM

Time to play the "mental gymnastics" and "convoluted reasoning" cards, SGH.

08-23-2004, 02:10 AM	#65
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	SpamofFlame? Must be my cousin. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-23-2004, 01:01 PM	#67
umbardacil Sapling Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: postdam ny Posts: 12	ring i thought the ring was made of gold mixed with saurons blood. The combo made some kind of hybrid-super evil gold.dont know where i heard that though.

08-23-2004, 04:33 PM	#69
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Yeah it says something about him mixing his cruelty and malice in with it. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 Last edited by Telcontar_Dunedain : 08-24-2004 at 02:13 PM.

08-23-2004, 06:18 PM	#70
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	But did he mix his cruelty and malice with the gold in the ring or with the spirit that dominated the ring. Its almost like he trappeda super powerful spirit inside the golden ring. Also if the gold was tainted thats not the golds fault. So originally the gold that created the rign was good then it wasa tainted by no faulkt of its own and then it became a ring and then the evil spirit was implanted in it. Also someone said Melkors presence was still in the gold. So you could argue that it is not the gold that is evil but the spirit that is dominating all gold. Its kind of sad how much I think this through. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-23-2004, 06:46 PM	#72
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The ring is not evil. The spirit embodying the ring and the spirit embodying the gold are evil but not the ring and not the gold. IT was just an innocent bystander who happened to be taken over. Poor little ringimudgit. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-22-2004, 07:09 PM	#63
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	I stand corrected! After all, I wouldn't wanna face that infamous stick of yours

08-23-2004, 07:09 PM	#74
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	I don't see how can a Ring have any personallity, though, or mind. I mean, it didn't have mind before Suaron messed up with it - so the mind was evil from the beginnig, from the first thought to the last. There was, IMO, no time for the Rign to develope a good personallity. __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

08-23-2004, 07:16 PM	#75
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	First off what gave the ring time to be evil. In my scenario which is yet to be totally and utterly refuted. (jk) According to the others gold was tainted by Melkor. TO answer that. Yes that is true. But was the tainting in fact maybe part of the spirit of melkor. So the gold isnt evil the spirit embodying it was evil. Then Sauron makes it into a ring. No evilness there. and then he embodies the ring with his own evil. SO therefore the ring and the gold were embodied. Taken over by evil but they were not evil. (phew) __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-24-2004, 02:38 AM	#76
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	I personally think that after Sauron's "cruelty and malice" were mixed with the Ring, they became so mixed with its original nature of gold, that the whole essence of the Ring (gold and "spirit") became one, evil being: the EVIL Ring.

08-24-2004, 02:44 AM	#77
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	But i have thought of another question. Did he mix his cruelty withthe gold or did he mix his cruelty with the spirit embodying the ring. Ah.. Ah... yeah this is getting tough... I think he mixed it withthe spirit which would make more sense. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-24-2004, 12:14 PM	#79
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	The gold was tainted and therefore evil. The spirit that used the gold to create the Ring was evil. The place it was created in was evil. The spirit that went into the Ring was evil, and therefore, the Ring was evil. Haradrim, why don't you make an argument that (how could the place it was created in be evil.) I mean it was just dirt, and a mountain of fire, a valcano. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

08-24-2004, 01:43 PM	#80
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Time to play the "mental gymnastics" and "convoluted reasoning" cards, SGH. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

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