11-10-2007, 05:22 PM | #61 | |
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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11-10-2007, 06:04 PM | #62 |
Elf Lady
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Hehe, I should have expressed myself better. I meant that knowing all your/ the suffering ends someday can be a consolation. Just knowing that you won't have to deal with it all anymore some day. If there is no end in sight, you can't give it your all now.
The point of having an end to life is living now. So sometimes you have to gather your courage, love and faith and/or other things that can keep you going. Giving up while in the midst of your life is not living while giving it all, and I most certainly do not encourage or justify suicide. Allthough I can understand euthanasie when your in great physical pain with no perspective on going back to life. For me a good ending, isn't the ending itself, but the end of a process. So I wasn't referring to the moment of death itself and I know there are lot of people who die in a painful or even shocking way. I was more referring to having lived without regrets. Perhaps equaling death to dead it not a good idea, since the first includes the process and the second is the final result. BJ, being the best you can be is always a good idea especially in life where it can still make a difference for your social circles and yourself. About dying with or without pain: I saw two people die in my life and the only ones who felt pain where the people left behind. 1 of them died in her sleep, and the other died after 3 days of being in a coma while his last moments awake he could still say goodbye to us. I don't think they felt pain. But I can't be certain since they can't tell us anymore
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11-10-2007, 06:36 PM | #63 | |
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So sorry that the self-interest resulted in beneficence to children. Obviously, you think it should not have any good result because it contains self-interest. But I thought common good utilitarianism was the bene maxima of your system?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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11-10-2007, 07:48 PM | #64 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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I didn't exist before I was born, but I don't let that effect my outlook. Why should what comes after be of any more concern?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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11-10-2007, 08:03 PM | #65 | ||
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We can't know whether someone will pull the trigger or not. You can claim that there are absolute morals to any given situation, but you are guided by imperfect human judgement in any situation. Even if there is absolute morality, our morality can be nothing but relative. Quote:
The problem is not that we all act in self interest. The problem is that we do not all realize what actions are in our own self interest.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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11-10-2007, 09:06 PM | #66 | |
Elf Lord
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So ..... Philosophy?
I don't seem to see much here ... Quote:
I would have to take the latter i think. When you say 'basic' do you mean as in the mere ability to not knock your knuckles continually against the jungle floor? ..................... so guys/gals ........ if you cannot talk about philosophy ... or at least debate Philosophically ... DON'T. Move your inane babbel elsewhere ..preferably up a tower ...somewhere near jericho... ................ reet' so what's the current debate then ? Last edited by Butterbeer : 11-10-2007 at 09:09 PM. |
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11-11-2007, 04:19 AM | #67 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
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Feel free to give this post a very long reply, Mari . If the length of my post makes things difficult for you, TOUGH .
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I understood your point, I think, but my point was that this consolation is a false consolation. Because, (assuming still that death brings non-existence), no one will ever experience an end to their suffering. The process of dying involves suffering, or at least it does in most cases, and that's all of death that the dying person gets to experience. They never experience death, only dying, because death itself means non-existence and no one can experience non-existence. So death cannot bring any feeling of release to the one who's dead, and we know it doesn't bring a feeling of release to the one who's dying and not dead yet. Quote:
There can be plenty of other motivators for living one's all, of course. People can form loves and passions and can give it their all simply through caring, and not through looking at death. For instance, I doubt that Mother Teresa gave life her all simply because of the end of her life being in sight. I think it was instead because she cared so passionately about the well being of the children she was helping. That's a very different motivation, and I think an even better, more wholesome one. I actually find the idea of giving one's all to life because death will bring non-existence a rather disturbing concept, in some ways. For giving one's all to life can be done in a variety of ways. For some, it might be living what they consider to be a moral lifestyle. For others, it might be pleasing themselves as much as they can in this life, because there is nothing more after this life. And for some, pleasing oneself can come at other people's expense. If there is no judge to witness one's actions and condemn them after death if they're wrong, then one can feel free to ruin the happiness of all manner of people in the course of pursuing one's own happiness, if one feels one can get away with it here. The Bible talks about such people too, mentioning that some say, "let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we may die." They'll enjoy life to the full here while making it miserable for others in the process, because they feel that there is no penalty that will catch up with them. If there is a very high likelihood that the government will catch up with them, or that there will be social ramifications for their behavior, maybe they'll think again. But this is simply a technical restraint, not a moral one. Death meaning non-existence actually will make many live in a less moral lifestyle than they might otherwise, I think. Not in a more moral lifestyle. Quote:
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I just remember this story about a pastor who went to visit a dying woman and didn't really know what to say, so he just started talking about what was going on with the woman's family and with the church, but eventually the woman told him to shut-up. She was focused on what was coming up for her, and the rest was behind her. So the pastor learned that when in the company of dying people, often they just want someone's presence. And it doesn't have to involve talking, for they don't really need that. Just being there is very important. When he just provided that presence, people were grateful. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-11-2007 at 04:22 AM. |
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11-11-2007, 04:52 AM | #68 | ||||
Elf Lord
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To me, physical life is not an end in and of itself. It is instead a means to reach spiritual life, a life that begins in this physical life and continues after it. That spiritual life includes in it all that makes Earthly, physical life, meaningful- love, goodness, justice, righteousness, gentleness, kindness, gentleness, patience, mercy, etc. Perhaps I shouldn't refer to spiritual life or physical life, however, as means or ends. That doesn't really express my view properly. Rather, I suppose I'd think of physical and spiritual life both as beginnings. The physical life is a beginning that leads to the spiritual life, and that spiritual life is the next beginning. Then the next beginning would be death, which allows the beginning of heaven, which leads to the beginning of the resurrection of the dead, which leads to the beginning of the New Heaven and New Earth, etc. Those are all only beginnings. But the fulfillment of all and in all is Christ. Christ is the end of each of these beginnings. Quote:
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If you really don't have any knowledge as to what death holds, and some of those holding viewpoints that differ from yours claim to have evidence to back their claims, then seeing as you're going to die eventually, it is quite rational to check those perspectives out. That wouldn't be unhealthy or illogical.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-11-2007, 04:55 AM | #69 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-11-2007 at 04:57 AM. |
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11-11-2007, 09:16 AM | #70 | |||||||||
Elf Lady
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My point is that knowing that someday you don't have to deal with it all can help people deal with it now. Quote:
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Perhaps for the record I should mention that I believe in some kind of afterlife allthough it is not Heaven, the way many people would describe it. Quote:
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Furthermore, euthanasie is for people with physical pains that can't be remedied. Usely, this only concerns 98 year old people who suffer a great deal, can't leave their rooms or sit or eat, they can't try anymore because they tried so hard for so long allready. Psychological pains can be remedied. If they can prove their psychological pains cannot be remedied, they can never live life to their best ability, perhaps that would be a different case, but then still. Quote:
Between knowing there is an end, and actually facing that end is a big difference. It's when thought becomes reality. And even if you're 118 and knowing your time will come soon, it is still shocking. So yeah, people need to prepare for that. And a person being present acknowledging your presence and being there for you is comforting. No one wants to be alone, in the middle of life or towards the end. Quote:
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
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11-12-2007, 12:53 AM | #71 | |
Elf Lord
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Bruces' Philosophers Song http://www.adelaide.edu.au/library/g...ilos_song.html courtesy of Monty Python.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 11-12-2007 at 12:55 AM. |
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11-12-2007, 08:33 AM | #72 |
Elf Lord
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mate, where d'ya think i graduated?
strewth! |
11-12-2007, 02:01 PM | #73 | |||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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Another necessary logical consequence of this perspective is that if death is good (for it to be consoling or comforting, it must be good) because it ends pain, then it is better to die, thus ending pain, than it is to live with pain. Thus euthanasia and suicide are fully justified. In fact, if death is better than living with pain, perhaps even murder is justified, because you'd be putting people out of their life of misery, and death is better than pain (though the murdered people might not have realized it). For death to be a consolation to those that are experiencing pain, it must be better than living with pain. Therefore death becomes better than life, and a lot of bad things are logically justified if that idea is true. I don't see why one should put one's all into life and pull through, if death is better than a life of pain (which is necessary for it to be a consolation). Quote:
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On a side-note, just out of curiosity, what is your view of the afterlife? Quote:
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For death to logically be a consolation to the living, it must be better than life. If it's worse than life, it's not a logical consolation. If death is better than life, everybody should commit suicide. Those that do are doing what is best for people, therefore, and are doing what's right. Perhaps by their example, they may convince others of the virtues of suicide, paving their way for a better world. An eco-friendly one! Sorry- I just couldn't help adding that last sentence . Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-12-2007, 02:50 PM | #74 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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I'd say that if something is eternal, any given moment loses it's value. While, the more temporal something is, the more importance we attach to each and every moment. It's why people who find out they are going to die soon speak of "living each day like it was their last", while the young and healthy are more apt to place less value on any given day because they see their future as nearly eternal.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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11-12-2007, 07:30 PM | #75 | |||||||||||||||||
Elf Lady
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I don't understand why you say that from our perspectives it will never end though. You know that someday you will be non-existent, doesn't that give an ending to a life even if you don't know the exact timing? Quote:
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Mind you, I am not talking about a life where everyday is filled with soo much pain, all you can think about is the pain. Also, allthough the idea of death can be comforting, I guess some people completely freak out when they think of their own deaths, their own mortality. People generally like living and would not be grateful if someone killed them to "put them out of their misery". But in those days that you look at life and all the suffering of so many people or of yourself at that moment, you think:"Hey there will be a time when I won't have to feel all this anymore, when I'm not able to feel this anymore. But before not experiencing anything I would like to experience this or that" and you will be able to get back again. Death is not just the stopping of some things, it's the ending of all things. And being glad that someday you won't have to suffer anymore doesn't mean that you can't at the same time feel energized to do something because you know that someday you won't be able to do it anymore. Quote:
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I don't want to hurt anyone with the above, especially not those who lost someone to suicide, but it's just that I know a machinist (a traindriver if machinist is not understandable English ) who hit someone who jumped in front of his train and it really really hit him hard psychologically. It happens fairly regularly near my town, there is clinic nearby and sometimes the inhabitants try to commit suicide and succeed. But I just can't understand how someone can be so consumed with their own pains that they can't think of the pain they will be causing others with their actions and that not all of them can choose a method that causes the least damage possible to those still living. Quote:
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HOW CAN THERE BE A BETTER WORLD IF EVERYONE IS DEAD AND NON-EXISTENT? And why would you want to make a better world when you know there is no one left to live in it because they all followed your example and commited suicide? hehe, guess I couldn't help myself Quote:
And I simply cannot understand how a 30 or 18 year old can say that they have seen enough of the world and don't want to even try and find more happiness then they are currently experiencing. If you climb a mountain and after a few meters you decide you don't like the trees blocking your view, do you go back down expecting it won't get any better anyway? Or will you go higher to get a better view? If I forgot anything, sorry. I'll answer it later then. Now I must sleep. I've taken a bit too much time hehe
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
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12-16-2007, 07:49 PM | #76 |
Elf Lord
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Mari and Lief,
Here's a title you may want to tell Santa Claus to get you each for Christmas! http://www.us.oup.com/us/catalog/gen...=9780199296422 Brief descriptor .... "Most people believe that they were either benefited or at least not harmed by being brought into existence. Thus, if they ever do reflect on whether they should bring others into existence--rather than having children without even thinking about whether they should--they presume that they do them no harm. Better Never to Have Been challenges these assumptions. David Benatar argues that coming into existence is always a serious harm. Although the good things in one's life make one's life go better than it otherwise would have gone, one could not have been deprived by their absence if one had not existed. Those who never exist cannot be deprived. However, by coming into existence one does suffer quite serious harms that could not have befallen one had one not come into existence." ... There are 256 pages of this. Next step? Mass suicide? to save the planet from global warming?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
12-17-2007, 03:06 AM | #77 |
Elf Lady
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Haha, thanks for the suggestion inked! I don't think he'd recommend mass suicide though
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
12-17-2007, 04:07 AM | #78 |
Elf Lord
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He probably would approve of mass-sterilization, though.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
12-17-2007, 10:44 AM | #79 |
Elf Lord
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You know, it is kind of sad for me that healthy young people are even giving this much thought to suicide.
I believe, absolutely, that there is a reason each of us is alive. I don't believe anyone is born (or not born) except as part of a larger plan. And I don't believe we die untimely, either. I don't know why some people die before *I'm* finished with them, but I don't really understand how TV works, either. Have a pine-scented day full of love, guys.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
12-17-2007, 11:01 AM | #80 |
Elf Lord
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Well, it's certainly been put more eloquently:
To be, or not to be--that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune Or to take arms against a sea of troubles And by opposing end them. To die, to sleep-- No more--and by a sleep to say we end The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to. 'Tis a consummation Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep-- To sleep--perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub, For in that sleep of death what dreams may come When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause. There's the respect That makes calamity of so long life. For who would bear the whips and scorns of time, Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely The pangs of despised love, the law's delay, The insolence of office, and the spurns That patient merit of th' unworthy takes, When he himself might his quietus make With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear, To grunt and sweat under a weary life, But that the dread of something after death, The undiscovered country, from whose bourn No traveller returns, puzzles the will, And makes us rather bear those ills we have Than fly to others that we know not of? Thus conscience does make cowards of us all, And thus the native hue of resolution Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought, And enterprise of great pitch and moment With this regard their currents turn awry And lose the name of action. -
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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