11-04-2001, 01:46 PM | #61 |
Hobbit
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For the moment, all I have to say is that justification by faith alone seems an incredibly convenient way to promote a religion.
More will come later, when I've had time to read all of this thread and the thread that preceded it. |
11-04-2001, 02:18 PM | #62 |
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faith: belief without proof, in what is told by one who speaks with out evidence of things without parallel
a casual stroll through an insane asylum shows that faith does not prove anything what is faith a hollow excuse. if the only way you can accept an assecrtion is by faith then you are conceding that it can not be excepted upon it own merits people do nor argue over things they have complete conficence it. we aren't arguing if the sun will rise tomorrow WHY becuase truth does not demand faith
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
11-04-2001, 04:34 PM | #63 |
Elf Lord
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Okay folks, let's end this debate. We're drawing straws. Yeah, and whoever draws the shortest straw is wrong and is going to Hell.
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11-04-2001, 04:42 PM | #64 |
The man
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Any "contradictions" found in the Bible can always be explained. Try me. The most common form is seeing one rule in the OT and another in the NT and saying they contradict each other. The answer to this is very simple. In OT times when you died you went to hell (with the obvious exceptions of course). That's because God had not yet sent his Son to redeem our sins, so the human race could not get into heaven. Therefore, the laws that governed man HAD to be different, since a just mans reward wasn't found in heaven for a LONG time.
Of course, that's the most simple explanation. There's also the fact that the Jews were surrounded by pagans, the temptations of the time were different, the needs of the people were different. And don't bother telling me those things didn't suddenly change when Jesus showed up. I'm not an idiot. But Jesus' teachings created a different atmosphere in the world. Perfect? You bet it ain't, but different. |
11-04-2001, 05:34 PM | #65 | |
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Quote:
Just because it was a different time you condone Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!" Psalms 137:9 . DT3:6 And we utterly destroyed them... utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. Rape of a slave woman is to be punished by scourging the victim (the slave woman) -- but the rapist's sins "shall be forgiven him." LEV 19:20-22 as far as contradictions here is one for you why is it that Judas was hanged in one gospel and fell of the cliff in another. tackle the hard ones
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 11-04-2001 at 05:35 PM. |
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11-04-2001, 06:19 PM | #66 |
Elven Warrior
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"why is it that Judas was hanged in one gospel and fell of the cliff in another. "
Huh? "" Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me he has truely sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who will reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted" C.S. Lewis The Last Battle N.B Tash is an extreme example. I don't mean all other deitys are like him. Actually, The Last Battle is full of good examples of how salvation works. Ch. 14 - the end." I disagree with Lewis. That was not inpsired by God. About the verses in James: it is not saying that faith alone cannot save you, it's saying that the proof of faith is good works! "I just wanted to say 'Thank you' to Sakata. He/she is the first person I've seen here that talks about taking joy in religion and not just thowing rules back and forth! " I do not beleive in throwing rules back and forth. In fact, I don't even have a religion: I have a relationship.
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11-04-2001, 07:19 PM | #67 |
Elf Lord
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Oh, come on people, I made a funny!
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11-05-2001, 03:27 AM | #68 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
(Mat 27:5 NRSV) Throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself. (Acts 1:18 NRSV) Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. sorry i said fell of a cliff. i should have said headlong to his death However that does not change the contradiction Quote:
explained away and explained are not the same. the most common ones attepting to be explained by votaries is the OT/NT there are HUNDRED's of contradictions and they are not mostly about the OT/NT problems but JC said that old laws STILL stood. So all the blood and violence of the OT stands today. PLEASE do not gloss over the difficult parts. The bible is fraught with errors.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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11-05-2001, 04:39 AM | #69 |
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So the consensus here seems to be: you are saved if you have faith and good works.
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11-05-2001, 12:10 PM | #70 | |
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Quote:
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11-05-2001, 03:15 PM | #71 |
Hobbit
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"Faith causes good works"
Absolute rubbish. The vast majority of trouble, suffering and war through history has been caused by religion. Look at the Crusades, for one example; they were an example of what happens when a whole nation becomes so wonderfully faithful and bases their institutions on it. The most recent example is Hitler. He was extremely strong in terms of religious faith and it motivated him to do what he did. I just about concede that many religious people are also "nice people". But there are many nasty religious people and many nice atheistic people. Don't ever try to claim that religion = moral fortitude, because it just doesn't hold water and it is extremely offensive. |
11-05-2001, 08:46 PM | #72 |
Hobbit-Huorn
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As much as I have stated my own arguments against the bible - or rather, against the seeming preaching of worship over good deeds, I must also discourage all those who seem to be attacking the idea of 'faith'. Faith is a perfectly acceptable way of choosing a religion, and remember that choice is not always conscious, but potentially learned or inwardly determined.
I am a very firm believing in not knowing. I don't know the right answer, and it could be catholicism. I don't think it is, but I certainly don't have any proof against it. To Afro elf: You have defined faith as belief without proof. This is a very vague definition. Is it belief with no proof whatsoever? If so, than it does not exist, for the bible is proof. It is a very circumstantial and tentative proof, but it offers a degree of it nonetheless. Any idea conceivable can have proof in that it was, at the least, plausable in thought. So you can't have no proof whatsoever. Meanwhile, if you would state that faith is belief without absolute proof, I would contest that nothing is absolutely proven. Science itself is just another belief system, and logically speaking, irrational at its roots. A good majority of science is based on empirical evidence and experimentation. If you perform an experiment 2000 times, and get the same result each time, then you will believe that the next experiment will give the same results, if everything else remains the same. However, this is not, technically, logical - it is inductive reasoning. The problem with inductive reason is that it is, itself, inductive in origin. Why do things that happen multiple times remain the same when we do them again? Because they always have before. Hence, you can't use inductive reasoning to proove its own validity, and science becomes a system of belief. Actual proof is nearly impossible to develop. Hence, faith or science are just as fallible.
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11-05-2001, 08:53 PM | #73 |
Elf Lord
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*waves frantically* Hey! Over here! I was being funny! Acknowledge me!
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Falmon -- Dylan |
11-05-2001, 11:34 PM | #74 |
Hobbit-Huorn
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Ohohohohahahahehehe
Happy?
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Through Truth, Power. |
11-05-2001, 11:58 PM | #75 |
Entwife
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I think I am going to change your user title to "Resident Funny Man."
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11-06-2001, 06:20 AM | #76 |
Hobbit
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Hey! can I have a title too?
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11-06-2001, 07:06 AM | #77 |
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One thing I've noticed, different professions seem to attract different stances on God.
Astronomers seem to give God's existence the benefit of the doubt, at the very least, and most of them are spiritual if not adhering to a specific religion. Physicists are like this too, with Einstein exclaiming "God does not play dice!!" and Stephen Hawking seeking to know "the mind of God" through physics. Biologists seem to regard the very idea of God anathema. So do many mainstream research psychologists. There is something called the Chomsky controversy, in which Noam Chomsky hypothesized that the ability to use symbolic language is a function specifically built into the human brain only. Many Psychologists find this abhorrent because it seems to suggest the existence of a "designer"--- even though Chomsky himself never implied that. The reaction of the psychologists is an indication how atheistic some branches of psychology has become, such that even the barest hint of a suggestion is found offensive. What I'm saying is that various professions and disciplines seem to attract very different people with regard to beliefs instead of a mixed bag in all scientific disciplines. I find this to be very curious. Last edited by easterlinge : 11-06-2001 at 07:07 AM. |
11-06-2001, 01:03 PM | #78 | |||
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Mathron
bravo, thanks for a well written reply Quote:
Your arguments to that statement I would GENERAllY agree with. It was taken from ambrose beirce, however, and were meant to be facetious. No damned smiley face the other two statements a casual stroll through an insane asylum shows that faith does not prove anything and if the only way you can accept an assecrtion is by faith then you are conceding that it can not be excepted upon it own merits these are probably more accurate ways to see my POV. as far as your problems of induction bertrand Russell and and david hume would be proud Quote:
To say "faith Or science is JUST as fallible" is like saying all opinions are equal. YES there is the problem of induction YET the world in not PROVED by logical PROOFS this was one of the mistakes of aristotle. "i admit that reason is a feeble flame, a fickering torch, yet it is the only light, extinguish that and naught remains We can obtain reliable albeit imperfect and tentative knowledge via science when science speaks of truth/fact/"proof" it can only mean confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisonal consent people often think of facts and theories as being on some sort of heirarchal scale. but facts are data and theories explain the data theories are not just guesses. they are theoretical frameworks that explian existing data and make predications there ARE varying degrees of certainty between theories. as far as the verication of induction science may be better viewed as falsification. where with induction a million succeses could still not prove thing BUT with Falsification ONE counter example and there goes the theory its a matter of probability. yeah spirits may exist but with the evidence the probability very low. when I turn on the electricity it works and if it does we can fix it. I don't pray for my lights to work i turn on the switch again with this Quote:
if it was JUST as fallible why don't we get equal results if a child is badly injured are you " not meaning you as mathron" just gonna pray that the child is healed. or are you going rush her to a hospital? If science IS just as fallible WHY does it work so well? Since the art of making fire and creating handcrafted tools, our civilization has come a long way. Science and Technology are making advances at an amazing rate. From telephones to the Internet, calculators to computers, cars to rockets and satellites, we are submerged in a sea of discoveries and inventions made possible by Science. Fields like Medicine and communications have made inroads into our cultures and thus our lifestyles. Every bit of food you eat, clothes you wear, the houses we live in, and anything else we know or make. Science has done more for the development of western civilization ALL invention and innovation Domestication of animals Calendars Mathematics Metal smelting Irrigation Writing Wheeled vehicles Draft animals Animation Architecture Art Accounting Agriculture Forestry Manufacturing Mining Telecommunications Transportation Computers Robotics Medicine Nutrition Aviation Fireworks Astronomy Biology Chemistry Earth science Physics Anthropology Archeology Economics Cognitive science Geography Psychology Sociology Aerospace Engineering Metrology Crafts Music Radio Photography Television Theater production Writing Reading Printing press for magazine and books hey two hands working do more than a thousand clasped in prayer if we wiped every vestiage of "FAITH" meaning religion, new age etc off of the face of the earth no major loss and then did the same with science we would naught but cold naked savages if they were JUST as fallible ... well you get the idea. Also thank you for such a good reply i really appreciate it.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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11-06-2001, 02:28 PM | #79 | |
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Quote:
Christianity and science are not two incompatible, opposite things. Many famous scientists were Christians.
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11-06-2001, 02:58 PM | #80 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
Faith *should* cause you to do good works, at least in Christian terms. But, as we all know, Christians aren't always the nicest kids on the block (look at the Crusades, the Cath. church in the middle ages, etc.) God calls you to do good works, but you still have the choice to do them. He wants you to be good for the sake of helping people and glorifying him, but he doesn't count up your brownie points at Heaven's gates. We are all horrible sinners no matter what, and only through Christ can we get to Heaven. Basically, God doesn't want you to be a "good christian" in fear of heaven. You should do these things because it's what's right.
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