03-18-2003, 01:15 PM | #61 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
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If the U.S. truly had the support of the majority of countries in the General Assembly, why not call for a vote?
What better way of showing France, Germany, Russia, China and the waverers on the Security Council that world opinion was against them? It wouldn't have been binding in any way, but it would have had great moral force. Because they would have got their heads handed to them on a platter - the column of countries supporting the war option was cited as including Canada, Mexico, Pakistan, Chile, and India among others. Would some of the other governments supporting the war in the face of massive domestic opposition- i.e. most of Rumsfeld's New Europe- have been willing to put their votes on record? (note the absolute silence from Berlusconi in the last couple of weeks) Cheney is certainly correct that some Middle Eastern governments also support the war but are afraid to show it- but what are they afraid of- Saddam? No, they're afraid of getting dragged out of their palaces and torn to pieces in the street- hardly an encouraging sign for democracy in the region. BTW a great overview of the mess the Bushies have made of this can be found at Newsweek http://www.msnbc.com/news/885222.asp?0cv=KA01 And Fareed Zakaria has been a very strong supporter of the war from the beginning. Anyway this is all basically moot- from last summer it's been obvious that as long as Bush was in Washington and Saddam in Baghdad that there was going to be war.
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03-18-2003, 01:38 PM | #62 | |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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Quote:
Interestingly, Blair could find himself being prosecuted in the International Court alongside Milosevic as a result of this. Bush, of course, won't, since the US doesn't recognise its jurisdiction. Last edited by Dunadan : 03-18-2003 at 01:39 PM. |
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03-18-2003, 02:17 PM | #63 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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True enough. Bush wanted war. The question now is do the Americans have the will to do what needs to be done. Will they invest the time and effort and money to do for the Middle East what they did in Western Europe? Or does the Bush administration and American people lack the will to do so? It doesn't take spine to invade Iraq-it will take spine to rebuild Iraq, to support the Iranian liberalization movement, to pressure Sharon to lean left and for the Palestinians to lean towards rationality. If the U.S has the will I have no doubt that the Middle East can fulfil its potential-though I'm sure I'll be denounced as Imperialist. If so what else can I say but-empires are here, so we might as well use them global benefit.
But I doubt the American people, and especially the Bush administration have the foresight, the patience and the will to do what needs to be done.
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03-18-2003, 03:11 PM | #64 | |
the Shrike
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03-18-2003, 03:51 PM | #65 |
High King of Númenórë
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You need proof for countries backing the US?
Thirty nations have joined with the United States in a "coalition of the willing" to bring down Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and another 15 quietly have promised their support. So here is a listing of some of those countries, I've listed 34, you can find this on news sites all over the place: Afghanistan Albania Australia Azerbaijan Bulgaria Colombia Czech Republic Denmark El Salvador Eritrea Estonia Ethiopia Georgia Hungary Italy Japan Kazakhstan Korea Latvia Lithuania Macedonia Netherlands Nicaragua Philippines Poland Portugal Romania Slovakia Spain Turkey United Arab Emirates United Kingdom Uzbekistan Yemen <--yup even Yemen, who would have guessed it... But I guess the US isn't supported
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen Last edited by Dúnedain : 03-18-2003 at 04:38 PM. |
03-18-2003, 03:57 PM | #66 | |
High King of Númenórë
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen Last edited by Dúnedain : 03-18-2003 at 04:19 PM. |
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03-18-2003, 04:11 PM | #67 | |
High King of Númenórë
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Speaking of Milosevic, just to prove how weak and useless the UN is, and to show one of the reasons why the US didn't call for a vote, is due to the UN's inability to stand up for people and against tyranical killers. Case in point look at Kosovo and Milosevic. Who of all countries made things difficult for the UN? Our lovely Russian friends who took over the airport to protect the Serbs, thus essentially leaving the UN in paralysis. Clinton went and bypassed the UN going straight to NATO and got the job done. The UN did nothing to stop mass murders, rapes, torturing, etc. by Milosevic and crew. Why would the UN do anything with another tyrannical killer? Exactly they wouldn't! That is why the coalition is bypassing the UN and going in to get the job done that the UN can't do!
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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03-18-2003, 04:32 PM | #68 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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"France to back war if chemical weapons used"
What the heck is France doing? Do they have some sort of death wish for Western Civilization-they delegitimize a war, thus making the aftermath of the invasion likely to be bloodier than necessary. They ensure the UN can't give a stamp of approval. And yet IF iraq uses chemical weapons in a war they don't support...they'll support the war! And I thought the U.S did nonsensical things...at least Bush has stuck to his vision.
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"Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom" |
03-18-2003, 04:36 PM | #69 |
Long lost mooter
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Here are my predictons:
Saddam may end up going into exile at the last minute -- just because he SAYS he's not going to doesn't mean that when it comes down to it he won't. However, I don't think he will because I think in his mind he believes he will "defeat" the U.S., but not militarily. He has not allowed anyone to leave Baghdad. A top Iraqi official said off the record that he secretly had his family leave, although it was forbidden. Saddam wants as many casualties as possible so that the U.S. looks like butchers when civilians are killed in airstrikes, or whatever. He will use his chemical weapons, blow up things, use suicide missions, etc. He will die so as to be seen as a martyr. My other prediction: Bush will not be elected for a second term. |
03-18-2003, 04:38 PM | #70 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-18-2003, 04:44 PM | #71 | |
High King of Númenórë
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*see's Saddam walking by and yells out "Dead man walking!"* hehe sorry I just had to I am not too sure about your second prediction. Here is the sole reason why. This war will make & break reputations. If it is found, which I highly suspect, that Iraq does have the things such as WMD and whatnot that various intelligence reports from various countries say then finally the US will be vindicated and the others who back and agreed, whereas those who wanted nothing to do with war for "lack of evidence" or things like that will have their careers flushed down the toilet persay. So that's what it will really come down to, plus I think the majority of Americans have seen the growth of Bush. For myself, I didn't vote for him, and didn't really like him all that much, but now I am glad he is my President and wouldn't have it any other way...
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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03-18-2003, 04:47 PM | #72 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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03-18-2003, 05:22 PM | #73 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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BUt I doubt it will happen...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-18-2003, 05:33 PM | #74 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-18-2003, 05:37 PM | #75 |
Dúnedain Ranger of the North
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Ruins of Arnor
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The Texas cowboy is calling Saddam out. Marshall Bush says to Saddam.. "You and yer boys will be gettin' out of town by Sundown Wednesday, or else be ready fer the consequences...."
I am hoping since we are obviously going in, that we have a workable plan, a contigency plan and an exit stratagy, and that loss of life is kept to a minimum.
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"I am an outlaw, I was born an outlaw's son. The highway is my legacy, on the highway I will run." |
03-18-2003, 05:44 PM | #76 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-18-2003, 05:57 PM | #77 | |
High King of Númenórë
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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03-18-2003, 06:35 PM | #78 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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What the hell is up with the French?
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
03-18-2003, 06:36 PM | #79 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Are admins allowed to swear?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
03-18-2003, 06:39 PM | #80 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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