10-27-2004, 05:24 AM | #61 | |
The Blobbit
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
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10-27-2004, 12:16 PM | #62 | |
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What an odd question you asked me - why did you ask that?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-27-2004, 12:23 PM | #63 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I don't feel like responding point-by-point to your post; I'll just sum up again and say that this is a very mysterious and deep concept, and I believe both in predestination (made obvious by the verses you quoted, as well as quite a few more) and free-will choices (the example of "we only did our duty" does NOT negate Jesus saying "well done, good and faithful servant", IMO. I think it's two separate ideas He's getting across, just like faith/works sometimes seem contradictory but are in fact complimentary). I see choice over and over in the Bible, and people admonished to do things, and rewards - yet it's balanced/complimented by predestination, etc. I think the song is a good summary of my position Discussion is VERY good, but only if we're ALSO getting our lazy little hineys out of our comfy chairs and loving others as Christ did. And this takes choice on our part, IMO, altho we cannot even exist to choose, apart from Him
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-27-2004 at 12:24 PM. |
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10-28-2004, 03:27 PM | #64 |
The Blobbit
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May I say (quite randomly) at this juncture that I went to my friend's house yesterday. She lives right at the top of the cliffs and, since I was very early and she was not home, I sat in one of the bleak shelters up there, looking out across the channel.
There, the picture of a marvellous scientific scene. Some time in the next two years I will be given to learn the formula which governs the way those waves move. And look, I could study the biology of the birds, I could study the chemistry of the water. But does is make the scene harsh, coldly ordered? Does knowing these things make the world scientific? No. It makes the science divine. You may now attack my semi-poetic outburst. Prior warning: My comeback will be: 'You had to be there'
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
10-28-2004, 04:44 PM | #65 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I won't attack it. I think it's an excellent point, Janny!
and I wish I could have been there!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-28-2004, 05:28 PM | #66 |
Elf Lord
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Janny, you say it well. What you see is rationally discernable by the applied human intellect and is evidence for a rational Designer according to Christianity. But what you see is more than the human understanding of wave motion and hydrogen bonds between oxygen and hydrogen in vast quantities infused with various chemical substances! It is that, but the sum of the parts makes a greater whole!
Reminds me of the shared experience of a Professor of Microbiology under which I was doing my MS. She told of an experience in which she was in her lab alone and discovered that under specific experimental conditions a certain bacterial species produced a protective mucus coating. She thought as she peered through her microscope, "I am the only person in the world who knows this!" Very clearly, she heard a laughing Voice (you could hear the capital 'V' as she told this), saying, "Surely not, Child! I have known it all along." Quickly she looked about the room, not knowing how anyone could have uttered anything so apropos her thoughts, and only confirmed that she was all alone in the lab. Her point, she said, as she maintained eye contact, was that all research would lead to the Designer - even when we did not expect it! Then she quoted "The sea is his and he made it, and his hands formed the dry land, and every living thing!" I have never forgotten her or this report of her experience in the hallowed halls of laboratory.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-28-2004, 06:09 PM | #67 | ||
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I really enjoyed both your stories Janny and Inked! This is a very entertaining thread thanks to all these brilliant posts... and I am but a lurker... and thread starter...
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-30-2004, 07:27 PM | #68 | ||
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To me, it makes sense that we are still precious and utterly lovely to God, even if we are predestined. Like God, we also can act only according to our nature. Neither God nor us can escape being what we are, and behaving as what we are. We have the freedom to do what is in accord with our own natures, and that is freedom enough. You haven't the freedom to act according to my nature, any more then I have the freedom to act according to yours. So in that sense, we have just as much freedom as God. Predestination only makes sense. That about summarizes it. I'd just add one more comment, briefly, something from my own personal experience. When I believed in Free Will (by normal evangelical interpretation) I found myself swimming upstream. I found myself confronted with numerous scriptures showing clearly that predestination actually is the rule. Now that my view has changed, I find scriptures constantly confirming this different perspective, and no more confrontation with Free Will views. I don't see any indication of Free Will in the Bible, honestly, if by Free Will one means choice that is separate from God's choice. I just have to have the last word . No, if you want to respond to this R*an, that would be great. The fact that you sent me a summary indicates that you may not be interested in discussing the subject at great length, which is understandable. I'm excessively verbose, and the issue doesn't really seem all that important from a practical perspective. Not that those are your reasons . I just like the sound of my own voice, so I'm still talking . . .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-31-2004, 02:11 AM | #69 | ||||
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-31-2004, 02:55 AM | #70 | |||
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God controls absolutely, but he doesn't make us do anything we would not naturally do. We have the freedom to act according to our natures, just as God has the freedom to act according to his. Complex answer I believe that we have freedom to act according to our nature. In that sense, we're as free as God, for he also is limited by his own nature. Reading LoTR, you would be stunned if Sam suddenly in RoTK started acting like Sauron, for no good reason. That would be a destruction of his freedom, to my opinion, for I define freedom as freedom to act according to one's nature. Sam has the freedom to act like Sam. J.R.R. Tolkien decided everything Sam would do before he did it, but he didn't make Sam do anything that Sam would not naturally choose to do. Everything Sam chose, Tolkien chose, and everything that Tolkien chose, Sam chose. From Sam's perspective, he really does have choices to make. From Tolkien's perspective, all his choices are already decided. Sam still has just as much freedom as Tolkien, though, for both can only act according to their own natures. Tolkien has chosen that Sam will act according to the nature Tolkien gave him, and Tolkien has no choice but to act according to his own nature. Both men are "predestined", while both are free. Now, a Sam without predestination is tough to imagine. No plot at all? However, a Sam without freedom is also miserable to imagine. Imagine Tolkien making Sam do out-of-character things, for the benefit of his plot structure. That would be very sad to see, and would make Sam worthless as a character- a mere puppet on strings. Everything is ordained, yet God does not dictate to us in this fashion. He doesn't exert this utter dominance. While he has complete control, he doesn't use it to make us do things outside of our character. That is actually one point at which Free Will advocates and people that believe in predestination disagree. People believing in Free Will often say that God does sometimes completely overrule people to make them do things. Pharaoh at the time of Moses would be an example of this, to them. To me, Pharaoh acted in complete freedom. God "hardened his heart" from a plot-maker's perspective. Pharaoh "hardened his heart" from a character's perspective. It's not sometimes Pharaoh doing it and sometimes God doing it. Pharaoh does it all the time, and God does it all the time. Quote:
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My brain's getting a little fuzzy. Would you care to explain what you mean a little more clearly?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-31-2004, 07:45 AM | #71 | |||||
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God gave us our natures, and freedom of choice. If God wanted to, God could make us "puppet on string characters", but God doesn't want to do that. Is that the gist of it? Quote:
Tolkien as God? The analogy is really working for me. Sam's my favourite character too! By predestination you mean a plot that God wrote for us - but I think it's open ended. The ending of our lives is up to us, based on the choices we make that God gave us. Quote:
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-31-2004, 11:48 AM | #72 |
Elf Lord
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God gave us the choices, but he had already decided what our responses to those different situations would be. He chose what is logical according to our natures. So I do think that God does have absolute dominance, just as Tolkien has dominance in writing a book. He can do exactly what he pleases, and he controls everything. However at the same time, he doesn't allow it to turn into "a bad fanfic". We act according to our natures. Even though God has already done everything, we're still acting in accordance with the nature God gave us, just as Sam acts like Sam. Therefore even though God has commanded everything into being the way it is, we still have just as much Free Will as God has, for just like us, God can only act according to his nature. That's my view, anyway. (hopes it comes through clearly enough)
Is Sam a puppet on a string? Tolkien does completely control him, yet Sam still ends up an utterly precious character. Tolkien makes and completely rules Sam, yet Tolkien behaves in essentially the same pattern that Sam does. Tolkien has to act like Tolkien, even while Sam has to act like Sam. Both are limited and forced to act in accordance with their own natures. So in that respect, we are as free as God. Sam is as free as Tolkien, for Tolkien never takes advantage of him and makes him do things.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
10-31-2004, 05:13 PM | #73 | ||
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Well, the anology isn't perfect, because Tolkien did control everything Sam did because he wrote the book. Except... um...I'm afraid I'm having a little trouble getting my mind around this concept. I mean, technically Tolkien made Sam do everything.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-31-2004, 05:25 PM | #74 | |
Elf Lord
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I'm using these examples of Jesus and Christ-like Christians to explain that freedom from God is not desirable. Constantly we can see that the most holy and most free people are the ones who are the least free from God. If the rule is freedom through slavery, as I here suggest, then on a broader scale no one having freedom from God at any time doesn't look so bad. Slavery is freedom for those that God has called to himself, so why should slavery be bad for everyone, on a larger scale? My point is that we can see on the smaller scale (with Christ and Christians) that predestination is good. In view of this, a broader scale predestination makes sense.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-31-2004, 10:59 PM | #75 |
Elf Lord
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For a brilliant and understandable use of the anology of God as author/artist, see THE MIND OF THE MAJKER by Dorothy L. Sayers. It explicates well the analogy of the author and characters by a successful writer who had thought about that process. It is not at all dull, though it could sound it from my pitiful but APPRECIATIVE reference.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-31-2004, 11:12 PM | #76 |
Elf Lord
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Knowing I would appreciate those parts particularly, my older sister, when she was reading the book, chose to read those parts to me. So I've actually already heard them . Yes, they were interesting. Unfortunately that was too many months ago for me to remember very clearly, now.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
10-31-2004, 11:43 PM | #77 |
Elf Lord
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Library, Dude! Library!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-01-2004, 01:30 AM | #78 |
Elf Lord
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Yes, I know. Actually, I may well be going to the library soon to get some information I need on geography. When I do, I may get the book.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
11-01-2004, 09:17 AM | #79 | ||
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Speaking of libraries, I've edited my first post to include a Theology Booklist, for your reading pleasure. I'll put in all the books we refer to in this thread, or suggest for deeper understanding of a point, etc. Suggestions always welcome.
Lief (I think it was you) were you referring to the book - "The Mind of the Maker" by Dorothy L. Sayers? <-- is the the right spelling?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-01-2004, 10:28 AM | #80 |
The Intermittent One
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Nurv, a suggestion for your theological bibliography
The Book of Wisdom by Tenzing Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama and also his Little Book of Wisdom |
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