12-05-2005, 05:14 PM | #61 | ||
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well. you knows your 'taters ... boy, it DOES work like that! hauntingly spooky, best BB |
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12-05-2005, 05:25 PM | #62 | |||
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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12-05-2005, 06:29 PM | #63 | |
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No, I think that Nine was just the Max group size. Even sauron didn't want more nazgul! Unless, as Olmer suggested, the Fellowship could pick more hobbits to have them to spare. One gets killed, but the Quest continues. With 8-9 hobbits the Ring could go very far! Alt+137 - "©£|" Here what it does on an old Mac! |
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12-05-2005, 06:31 PM | #64 |
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Gildor couldn't have been near the Brandywine, as it is him who bought the news to Rivendell about Frodo's plight with the Ring.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
12-05-2005, 09:32 PM | #65 | ||
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12-05-2005, 09:40 PM | #66 |
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well, maybe he had a marrow allotment?
serious business growing marrows y'know! (and you should know if anyone does!!) |
12-06-2005, 04:47 AM | #67 |
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You know... I never really understood the marrow joke. Is this the same marrow we have in our bones?
And about the Eru business... I never really thought of it like that, but I agree with Gordis and the Gaffer. Eru was unfair, really... there was definitely a Ban, but he never told tham Numenor would sink under the sea if they broke it! And the promise not to break the Ban was extracted from their distant ancestors... the ones who broke the Ban never really gave any promises, so the whole point about oath-breaking is invalid.
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12-06-2005, 08:12 AM | #68 |
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it's a vegetable, tis a northern english obsession with some people: twas speculated sometime ago that the Witch King of Angmar may have had a keen interest in horticulture up t'north, like , esp growing the largest marrows ....
well i am not sure i agree serenoli they knew the edict and that it wasn't a temporary ban ... it wasn't so much a promise made by the Numenoreans, but a law laid down on condition of granting the island of Elenna to them ... not to sail out of sight westwards of the island or to tread into the utmost west ... the line of elros chose mortality ... thus they could not tread there... what would happen if they did get there though? would they be immortal? - is there no death there, even for mortals? |
12-06-2005, 08:35 AM | #69 |
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OK let's keep it to these chapters.
If you want to discuss Numenor and/or Angmar - you can find the right thread elsewhere, or start one.
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12-16-2005, 05:03 PM | #70 |
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thus the opening salvo of the war begins -
"Well for myself" said Aragorn... "it is dark before me. ... an hour long prepared approaches" this quote has always made me wonder ... what do we take it to mean? there are a couple of things i'd like to look at: firstly, we know that the heirs of Elendil and isildur had the foresight of their lineage and could bend their minds and see things far off (mainly, i contend with the palantir - and this is before arargorn attemps it) - but to me this quote implies heavily that arargorn to some degree can see the road ahead - yet he forsees it is dark ... or do we take it to mean blocked? .. if just 'dark' in some ways this is a pretty fair guess - but i have never took it in that light myself. also Aragorn's sight in this respect had been pretty well hidden from the readers to this point, anyway, what do you think? The other thing here, for me, is the "... an hour long prepared approaches" what are we to take this to mean in context of arargorn himself saying it? Surely he cannot know that the doom of middle earth is pre-judged - and indeed that is another whole question in itself, entirely (which i suggest we do not follow here, sadly) does he refer to the words of the seer? (again, remember this is before the Dunedain and Elrond's sons bring the words from Elrond bidding him remember the words of the seer, Malbeth if so .. how do we take "an hour long prepared approaches" to mean? prepared by whom? |
12-18-2005, 07:38 AM | #71 |
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I haven't read this for many days, and can't remember exactly where he said this... but, when he talks about 'an hour long prepared approaches', he may be referring to the fact that he'll have to go back to Gondor and claim his kingship... maybe that hour?
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12-19-2005, 05:14 PM | #72 |
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yes, maybe ... though it occurs to me he may be referring here in this chapter, to the doom of Arwen ... and Elrond's words that he would only allow a marriage and all it curtailed for Arwen, if Arargorn fullfilled his destiny somehow and became High King of Gondor and Arnor.
In terms of long prepared ..we have of course Arwen long preparing his standard, the tree, the seven stars and the crown ... also he has forsook taking either a wife or a lover, waiting for Arwen ...so there is that aspect too .. though i still think it an odd thing to say or imply ...esp as it is before they ride off and are overtook by the Dunedain riding hard from the North, seeking him and bringing the words of Elrond,, to remember the words of the Seer. BTW Serenoli, thanks for your kind words, thoughts and support - much appreciated. very best, BB |
12-21-2005, 11:20 AM | #73 |
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5) this deepening gloom, this cloud that made the very air seem brown and stale ... what in your opinion was this and how did sauron create and control it?
from the Muster of Rohan ... this question has not been attempted yet ... i'd be interested to know what you all think on this one... |
12-21-2005, 08:44 PM | #74 |
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I would say volcanic ash and fumes from Orodruin, carried on the East Wind.
Sauron can control weather to some extent, surely. |
12-22-2005, 07:10 AM | #75 |
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I agree with Gordis. It was even suggested that he had a hand in the Caradhras storm.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
12-22-2005, 04:44 PM | #76 |
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yes, TD and Gordis i don't doubt sorcery was involved in attempting to control the weather or winds ... although i always thought caradhras was unclear ... i had always thought of it as some sorcery, but i suspect as Gor says it was probably partly man (or orc etc) made ... but these clouds were so thick to almost make it completely dark and stretched from over Gondor right up to Rohan - and who knows how far beyond?
It would take vast incredible amounts of ash and fires and what not to do that. the line later in the book " the darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his master had set for it.." implies to me something other than just a man made massive pall of smoke and fumes ... though it is the best explanation so far ... i think tolkien was implying a sorcery as much as anything else ... certainly a mix of sorecery and some man made elements, as gor suggests? it is appromixametly 360 miles as a crow flies from Orodruin to edoras (on an accurate calculation from the map and scale in my book (a red, hard-bound, Allen and Unwin, 1966) - i guess in style of the red book of westmarch? and that is in a straight line: these clouds or whatever must have covered a HUGE square area... btw: was another will fighting Sauron or was it fate that these clouds - or the wind changed not at the time set by sauron? (to be fair we should probably move discussion of that bit to 'the battle of the pelennor Fields' when it is posted up ...) How much do we think this darkness is to make men despair .. to lower moral and engender fear? or how much was it to make trolls and orcs happier and better able to fight day and night? best, BB |
12-23-2005, 04:45 AM | #77 |
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In this particular case it probably is Sauron, or else just a big metaphor.
I don't think all of these things can be attributed directly to Sauron, though, who was himself but a servant of Morgoth. LOTR is replete with references to how evil things "begin to stir" at times as if responding to some call. In Unfinished Tales (or is it the Silmarillion?), Morgoth says as much to Hurin: that his thought is bound into the fabric of the world from the very start, and so reaches into everything. |
01-29-2006, 07:38 PM | #78 | ||||||||||
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After reading the discription of Dunharrow, I started thinking of how gletsjer movements could have formed the valley. I'm such a geek. Quote:
And even if Merry would not ride with the Rohirrim into battle, it could still be that the battle would come to Rohan, if Minas Tirith fell. That way Merry would still better be prepared for battle. Clearly Rohan itself isn't out of the woods yet, as they hear tales of war and assailants when the Rohirrim finally depart. It could well have been that Dunharrow did see battle when their cavalry was gone to Gondor, we're just not told because no important character was left there. I wonder how the people of Rohan reacted after finding Éowyn gone. Would they have suspected she had snuck off? Or would they have suspected foul play? In any case I bet there would have been much unrest. Quote:
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I also noticed that Éowyn apparantly expected Merry to guess who she was. But Merry seemingly only recognized her when she lost her helm on the battle-field. Clearly he was not paying much attention, I gather. Quote:
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01-30-2006, 12:37 PM | #79 | ||
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But, I still wonder what their conversation was like. Did Sauron ask questions, did he cajole or use threats? And what DID Aragorn say? And why didn't Tolkien write that scene, it must have been very exciting, yet he leaves only hints... do you think he found it too hard to decide exactly how it should go... or was it because actually seeing the Dark Lord worsted in verbal combat would dispel the air of mystery and fear that surrounds him in the rest of the book?
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01-30-2006, 04:23 PM | #80 | |
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