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12-22-2004, 11:29 AM | #61 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
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Quote:
the US is also largely secular from a day-to-day pov
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-22-2004, 01:47 PM | #62 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
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brownjenkins,
Does that mean that the individuals known to you are inadequate exemplars of their beliefs and therefore evidence against those beliefs whilst you abjure the interposition of belief into the political process? Methinks me smelleth inconsistencies more than one!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
12-22-2004, 02:00 PM | #63 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Quote:
it simple means that most people live their lives day-to-day, judging each decision on it's own merits (or lack of ) as opposed to consulting scripture or the weekly sermon... even if they might express their thoughts in such a way when given time to reflect on someplace like a messageboard... justifying actions by principle, as opposed to acting upon principle... i'm the same way, and joyfully embrace the hypocracy of it all it's the difference between idealism and pragmatism... most like to express ideals, most (if not all) conduct their lives much more pragmatically
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-22-2004, 02:21 PM | #64 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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But, mayn't one actually be so grounded in the on-going process that one's CHARACTER has been molded to proper action without prayer and fasting for a week over the decision to buy a newspaper ? I for one get awfully busy and find the prayer (I regret I cannot give proper attribution at the moment) helpful:
O Lord, You know how much business there is in my day today, while I do not yet. Grant that I may not be so busy as to be forgetful of Thee, but if I do, forget Thou not me! Guide me in all I say or do to the glory of Thy holy name; through Jesus Christ, who reigns with You and the Holy Spirit now and forever. AMEN. Now, I still may choose wrongly or be in error out of self-will. I may yet have cultural bondages unknown or unrecognized which have not yert come under The Mercy. And I probably won't smack anyone upside the head with a Bible or a pamphlet either and coerce them into a "penny-baptist" confession of faith on a street corner! Sorry to be so disappointing!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
12-22-2004, 06:39 PM | #65 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
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Quote:
But.. let's see: no, we will not, at any price, give them their 'right' to come back to Israel - which would make the destruction of Israel IMO, as there will be an Arab majority. Now... it's not their lands anyway, they lost it in the war. It doesn't matter, if you want, that they've started it. Fine. but the conquered areas are Israeli now, as the areas would be if they have conquered them, I suppose. Perhaps the UN resolution wasn't indeed fair (and I did make a 'research': 55% was meant to be jewish, although the jews were the minority).. yet you must remember it was decided by 10 neutral nations. Not Arabic nor one of the empires. They probably had reasons.. you don't know everything about what happened and was there at the time. See, now this is a jump to these days... I cantell you that (1) bulldosing buildings is not legal anymore, unless they have permission from the court, and that (2) there are reasons for it. Terrorists use these houses to hide. Now, either many soldiers will be killed, or many people will be without homes... it's indeed a hard decision - but I think lives of people are still more important, you can disagree. We did not do it so that they won't return. Where did you read/heard that? or do you mean in 1949? I don't think they had bulldozers then. Well, that could well be, that they explode themselves in buses of financial needs... but our economical situation at the moment isn't much better, and still we supply them electricity, water, jobs... Would you think how much harm we can do to them, if we wanted? Without using 'weapons'. You see, we don't want to kill them, we want peace. Personally, if they want to be a country soon, I'd suggest they'll start taking care of their own people. Quote:
I've read a history book now, just because of you, and can tell you they didn't attack because we expelled Arabs... Arabs and jews faught before they started the war. The Arabs faught and were as equal until we won on April 1948 IIRC. Quote:
Before the autonomy i'm not sure how things were, but I suppose they were citizens too. As said, I'm not sure. |
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12-22-2004, 06:41 PM | #66 | |
Elf Lord
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The Bedhoines don't legally own this land, and therefore shouldn't get it without paying for it - and have agreements with the government. Many of them are criminals - taking money from people, with threats that they're burn their houses, etc., the police can't do anything about it apparently. (not enough forces). It givesthem a bad name in general. I don't have time! I'll reply more later maybe. |
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12-22-2004, 07:25 PM | #67 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Quote:
Please use the OTHER thread for this line of posting!!
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12-23-2004, 11:43 PM | #68 |
Elf Lord
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They are really nice people who want things their way? or what? Remove Dante from Where?
Keeping Christ in Christmas by Diana West December 20, 2004 I would like to open today's sermon, I mean column, with a newsflash out of Vatican City, courtesy Reuters: "Pope John Paul, battling to keep Christ in Christmas, has defended nativity scenes that are being stripped from holiday celebrations in some Italian schools to avoid offending non-Christians." This could be a farcical joke, but the trite wire copy is pathetically true. For starters, it seems that a school in Como has edited out the name "Gesu" (Jesus) and replaced it with the word "virtu" (virtue) in its choir's renditions of Christmas hymns. Which rhymes and everything, but falls flat. Also, the province of Vicenza has canceled its annual contest for the best nativity scene in the schools of the province. Then there's the elementary school in the northern Italian city of Treviso that has decided to nix its traditional Christmas pageant depicting the birth of Christ in order to present a dramatic, um, Virtumas presentation of the adventures of Little Red Riding Hood. Substituting Li'l Red's fairy-tale trip to Grandma's house for Mary and Joseph's biblical trip to Bethlehem may sound like something that happens down the rabbit hole, but Reuters reports that things are on the level: "The teachers said the famous tale was a fitting representation of good and evil and would not offend Muslim children." And Muslim children, it turns out, are the only "non-Christians" in the Reuters story. Not Jews, not atheists, not whatever other minorities are content to live in a historically Roman Catholic country and just walk on by the old creche without "taking offense," that traumatic postmodern condition more damaging and contagious than any plague or pestilence. But why does a seasonal depiction marking the anniversary of the single-most significant religious, historic and cultural event in the Western world -- of which Italy remains a part -- offend anyone in the first place? I don't get it -- and I'm Jewish. If "taking offense" is the issue, isn't eradicating the commemoration of Christ's birth -- and the universal ideal of peace on earth -- equally as likely to make Italian Catholics take offense? Of course, ruffled feelings, either on the part of Italy's 1 million-plus Muslims or 50 million-plus Catholics, are not the issue. Power is. I recently came across something Eric Hoffer, the man known as the "longshoreman-philosopher," wrote 30 years ago about dissent and power: It is maintained that a society is free only when dissenting minorities have room to throw their weight around ... As a matter of fact, a dissenting minority feels free only when it can impose its will on the majority: what it abominates most is the dissent of the majority. I don't know if the Muslims in Italy's nativity-cleansed zones feel qualitatively more "free" for having thrown their weight around, but as a minority they have certainly imposed their will on the majority. But is it really the will of Italian Muslims? Certainly, Italian-Muslim activist Abdel Smith has called for the removal of crucifixes and Dante in Italian classrooms, and even a Giovanni di Modena fresco from the 15th-century Bologna cathedral that "offensively" depicts a Dante-inspired image of Mohammed in hell. He's likened the annual Christmas pageant to "forced indoctrination." But Reuters did find an Islamic leader of a Milanese cultural institute who said it was "senseless" to change the words of Christmas songs. (No word on what he thought about nativity plays.) The main point is it was the local Italian schools and councils that made the decision to remove the Christ from Christmas in the first place. Maybe they were attempting to circumvent local "non-Christian" (read: Muslim) protest, and therefore canceled their traditional celebrations out of a basic kind of fear. Or maybe they were acting out of a desire to curtail or de-emphasize their own religious and cultural expression, which is also a kind of fear. Either way, it hardly reflects a robust sense of what could be called self-esteem. "It is the perfect example of how not to respect the presence of different people, in this case our Muslim brothers, by annihilating our own identity," said Bishop Agostino Marchetto, head of the Vatican's department for migrants. "Are we losing our minds?" asked government Reforms Minister Roberto Calderoli. "Do we want to erase our identity for the love of Allah?" Annihilating identity. Erasing identity. When the pope has to remind his Catholics that celebrating the birth of Christ is "an element of our culture and of art, but above all a sign of faith in God," isn't it pretty much gone? END *********************** This ties up with the Christmas thread but I think it really belongs more here! Hey, Valandil, did you ever recover the article about when the population of Islamics reaches ~30% the goverments change? Italy only needs 1/50, it seems!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
12-24-2004, 12:39 AM | #69 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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I exchanged emails with him after you questioned me about it. He recommended a couple books on the subject. Would you like me to loop you into that?
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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12-24-2004, 12:57 AM | #70 |
Elf Lord
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Yes, please. Since my earlier encounter with the political realities of the ME in the form of a fellow from Iran, if you recall, the subject has interest. And from what I know of the various African countries embroiled in such situations, I should like to be better informed. I have spent most of my career in association with many Islamic MDs from various countries and I can recall off-hand comments that now seem significant, but which I did not get the import of at the time. Thanks!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
12-26-2004, 07:03 PM | #71 | |
Elf Lord
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12-28-2004, 03:53 AM | #72 | |||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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I'm picking up again this discussion, if Elvellon is still around, and interested ... or other people ...
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 12-28-2004 at 03:58 AM. |
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12-28-2004, 04:08 AM | #73 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Quote:
Turkey will soon become a part of the EU. I know that they must be accepted first, but if not this time then the next ... with their 67 million people they will probably soon become the largest country within EU with respect to population. I'd very much like to hear people's thoughts on this, both Europeans and non-Europeans.
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 12-28-2004 at 04:24 AM. |
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12-28-2004, 08:13 AM | #74 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Quote:
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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01-06-2005, 10:38 AM | #75 |
Elf Lord
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datelined from Paris, France (not the more famous Paris, Texas ):
of interest, perhaps... Are there Muslim Samaritans? Commentary By Uwe Siemon-Netto UPI Religious Affairs Editor PARIS, Jan. 4 (UPI) -- As the world is focused on the victims of the tsunami disaster in Southeast Asia, a debate is raging among Muslim scholars about an ancient topic: Who is your neighbor? "Some insist it's the fellow Muslim," says the Rev. Hans Voecking, one of the Roman Catholic Church's leading experts on Islam. "Others feel charity should be extended to any human being." One Muslim Internet blogger accused his coreligionists of "racism" because their aid is chiefly directed at Islamic nations. Well, racism is clearly the wrong term, for racism is one evil Muslims cannot be accused of. More likely, many - though definitely not all - Muslim thinkers have a deficient view of man, meaning that only those who share their faith deserve maximum charity. "The problem is that the Good Samaritan and Christ's commandment to love your enemy are not concepts you will find in the Koran," explains Christine Schirrmacher, president of the Bonn-based Islamic Affairs institute. Hence, Muslim concern is reserved for the Umma, or Islamic community. Wander through Muslim Web sites, and you will find ample confirmation for this insight. Of course some Muslims find this embarrassing. One blogger pillories the stinginess of the Saudi Arabian government, which offered only a $10 million contribution to tsunami relief operations. "Contrast this with $155 million raised a year ago in a Saudi telethon to support the families of Palestinian suicide bombers," the blogger writes. This debate is particularly fascinating as it points to signs of an emerging Western Islam that has come under some influence of Christian views on charity, which reject the idea of discriminating against needy people based on their religious persuasion. It would be unthinkable, for example, for huge charitable Christian organizations such as the Catholic Relief Services or the Lutheran World Relief to give preference to Catholic or Lutheran - or even just Christian - recipients. But then Christian theology rules out statements such as this one by the prophet Mohammed: "Whoever relieves a believer (sic) in this world, Allah will relieve him of some of his distress on the Day of Judgment." The example for a Christian to follow is the one given by Jesus in his parable of the Samaritan who looked after an anonymous victim of robbery not knowing anything about his identity (Luke 10:25-37). The gist of this story is that he who shows mercy will inherit eternal life. This is precisely, says Schirrmacher, the topic of a controversy raging between Christians and Muslims - and Muslims and Muslims - in their current dialogues. At issue here is the difference between, say, Seventh Day Adventist hospitals healing Buddhists, Hindus, pagans or even atheists, and Saudi-sponsored hospitals in some parts of Africa treating patients for free only if they convert to Islam. The controversy may well be drawing to a close in countries such as the United States, where a Western form of Islam is emerging, an Islam working closely with Christians and Jews in such charitable endeavors as the present tsunami relief operations. But similar turns seem to occur in some Middle Eastern states, such as Qatar, on whose Web site, Islam Online, the sheikh on duty issued this hopeful fatwah (religious expertise) on the question of what kind of disaster victims Muslims should help: "Islam is a universal call for mercy to all human beings. It urges Muslims to rush to the help of their fellow afflicted humans, especially at times of distress. " END
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-06-2005, 01:42 PM | #76 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
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And the point is... Muslims aren't as good as Christians, or what?
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01-06-2005, 02:23 PM | #77 |
Quasi Evil
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Location: Maryland, US
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pretty much. there seems to be a theme of that building in the tsunami thread too.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
01-06-2005, 09:56 PM | #78 |
Elf Lord
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Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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The Gaffer and IR,
The point is that there are differences between Christianity and Islam. Your value judgments are your own to make. It is a direct consequence of the worldview espoused by differing religions as to how they interact with the surrounding world, both human and nonhuman aspects. To note a difference is not to make a value judgment, but it may enable the observer rationale to be buttressed by facts. Depending on one's values, discrimination between aspects of religious belief will be accorded various weights. After a series of informed discriminations, I think most persons do end up making judgments of some sort.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-06-2005, 10:07 PM | #79 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
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Translation: "Muslims aren't as good as Christians."
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
01-06-2005, 10:13 PM | #80 |
Elf Lord
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Is that your final answer, IR?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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