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08-30-2004, 09:21 PM | #61 | |||
Quasi Evil
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Location: Maryland, US
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Well ive lost track to where im supposed to be replying to. So ill run through some brief responses on this one just in case.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 08-30-2004 at 09:24 PM. |
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08-30-2004, 09:30 PM | #62 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
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"Dark ages"?? I-Rex, you should know better than to use out-dated colonialist terminology!
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
08-30-2004, 09:33 PM | #63 |
Quasi Evil
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oh sorry. light challenged ages...
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
08-30-2004, 09:39 PM | #64 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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Very interesting post, Insidious Rex. I'm going to enjoy responding to it. I think offhand you made quite a few errors about the Medieval Ages and are minimizing what really was a very big movement. I don't really have time immediately to respond, though. Will do some research and then respond .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
08-30-2004, 11:11 PM | #65 | ||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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Monasticism
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In the ninth century, when the monasteries became more wealthy, it was mainly noblemen that entered in. Aristocrats and other people of high birth made up almost the entire community in the monasteries. Quote:
It's also interesting to note that it was when money earning and other more secular things became important focuses of many monasteries that they greatly decreased in influence upon society. This makes sense if most people entering them are aristocrats. Quote:
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During some points of the Middle Ages monasteries were known to become corrupt as well.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-30-2004 at 11:16 PM. |
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08-30-2004, 11:53 PM | #66 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
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I can't dissect one of course. Is that what you'd need? Quote:
For the record, there are millions of Christian spiritual experiences also. That's not even getting into the vast numbers of spiritual experiences among nonChristians (Buddhists, Hindus, New Ageists and many cults). So yes, there's a lot of evidence for genetics. But for the reality of the spiritual there's an overwhelming multitude of evidence existing from thousands of years ago and carrying right on into modern days. Quote:
Look at the computer in front of you. It's an incredibly complex machine, and you know virtually nothing about how it works. However, you can enormously appreciate the benefits you receive from it. You can play computer games or operate computer programs to accomplish complex mathematical equations without having to understand all of how the computer works. You gain from it without in your own mind being able to quantify it, slice it apart, know exactly how it ticks. You don't need that knowledge in order to appreciate it and work with it. Other people know how various parts of it work. Probably no one alive knows exactly how every part of it works. Hundreds of different people know how tiny different fragments of it work. The fact that it does work is enough for you, without all of the dissection, without having to understand every detail of this machine. So it is with Christianity. Each person who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is like a user who owns his own computer. No one who knows Jesus knows everything about himself that he's provided. Everyone knows tiny different fragments of information. They can all use this great computer, they all know that it exists and that it works. Everyone can enjoy knowing Jesus Christ without knowing everything about the Godhead. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-31-2004, 12:01 AM | #67 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-31-2004, 01:55 PM | #68 | |||||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 08-31-2004 at 01:57 PM. |
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08-31-2004, 02:31 PM | #69 |
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I think this sort of fits in the conversation.
What is serial monogamy but a form of polygamy?
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
08-31-2004, 03:30 PM | #70 | |||||||
Quasi Evil
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This is talking about the monasteries of central England. Not just one or two but the vast majority of them apparently: Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 08-31-2004 at 03:42 PM. Reason: Had to indent the quote within the quote. |
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08-31-2004, 03:53 PM | #71 | |
Quasi Evil
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Location: Maryland, US
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-31-2004, 04:26 PM | #72 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Serial monogamy ..... marrying, divorcing, marrying, divorcing .... like Hollywood stars and our King Henry VIII
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Last edited by Hemel : 08-31-2004 at 04:32 PM. |
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08-31-2004, 04:43 PM | #73 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-31-2004, 05:17 PM | #74 |
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Here I go the third time, I hope the third time's the charm. (I lost my entire quick reply message twice already; it took so long to write I was unsigned in when I went to post.)
I was thinking along the lines of monogamists who cheat (I realize that would be loosely using the dictionary definition) but also marriage-divorce-remarriage-divorce-remarriage-etc. (I see now that Hemel mentioned that). --- You should realize that the articles you quoted above are merely singular exceptions to general monastic life. Some monks were wealthy, contradicting their vows of chasity, however this is some (not all, and not even most). And I just noticed your one sentence "Now I'm sure this was not true of EACH and EVERY monastery." Of course not! It is so easy to dig up examples of corruption in any institution on the internet. I also saw your third article (beginning "Perhaps the most interesting") is from a free essay website, so I'm a lot less inclined to believe it. Do you think the monks had it easy? Here is some sample schedules from the Benedictine Order ( http://www.aedificium.org/MonasticLi....html#appendix [I was looking for my Wester Civilizations notes from last year about this but couldn't find them; the websites will suffice]). It looked like they got on average 5 hours of sleep. Constant prayer times; manual labor; 1-2 meals a day; etc. Doesn't look quite so easy to me. You can scroll up to read more about the Benedictines. Remember they were one of the more stricter orders of monks. Here (from the same website) is an article "Common aspects of monastic life" ( http://www.aedificium.org/MonasticLi...alAspects.html ). And finally the article from the Catholic Encyclopedia on manasticism (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10459a.htm ). Lief--have you ever seen the movie "The Mission" from the 80's I believe starring Jeremy Irons and Rober DeNiro?
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
08-31-2004, 07:54 PM | #75 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-31-2004, 08:29 PM | #76 | |||||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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However, you want to know something I learned as I studied Economics? The economics instructor was talking about the examples that are given on the news of one person's story being shown by the media. The person (the economist called Joe) has undergone enormous economic hardship. He lost his retirement fund and isn't getting paid his benefits. The economist instructor responded this: "I don't believe in him." Why not? Because he's only one person that the media are using. The economist looks at the statistics and views what they say. Is this guy a majority or a minority? He learns that from them, and then he makes a judgment. Unlike most people that just have time to watch the news, and they make their judgments based upon that single account. The single account is not good enough. Even though we've got . . . let's see . . . three accounts here so far. Is that enough to judge the entire Benedictine Order? Is it enough to judge the centuries of the Medieval Ages, where thousands of abbeys filled Europe and vast numbers of monks dedicated themselves to following these vows? I don't think three accounts are good enough, personally. Quote:
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It says in the World Book that after the main time of the monastic order, the remnants dissolved into groups of wandering friars and never regained their former influence. Perhaps the ale toting friar image comes from them? Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-31-2004, 08:33 PM | #77 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-31-2004, 09:01 PM | #78 | |||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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The poor are rarely bound by economic constraints from getting married- it happens whether they're poor or not. The rich are failing while the poor in my view are more successful, genetically speaking. Quote:
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Have sex before you're married and you're much more likely to get STDs. Condoms, when used properly among teens, only work 50% of the time I've heard. Plus, it would make the marriage all the more special if you've reserved yourself for your mate for life. Anyhow, I could offer more arguments I expect. And you could respond to them. Should we continue? Quote:
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What I was responding to in posting that was your statement, "we should expect to see some reaction in the human being to a spiritual visitation" (I reworded what you said, hope I got it right ). So I was providing evidence that this reaction you desire is indeed observed. Whether it was a spirit or not is still for others to decide for themselves, after evaluating the evidence.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-31-2004, 09:14 PM | #79 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
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FM? Are you still going to change the title?
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
08-31-2004, 09:29 PM | #80 |
Elf Lord
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Eh? Oh my- I thought I already had changed the title. I changed it to "Why you believe what you believe", which would be inclusive of this current soul debate, and of other issues. It's a title R*an was planning to make a topic with. She was debating whether to do so or not. Obviously, the topic still would be quite loose.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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