Religion and Individualism

[The Gaffer]

There must be Catholics who are Democrats too, no?

Over here, the "Catholic vote", if there is one (and I am not sure there is) would tend to be left-leaning rather than right.

[Valandil]

I'm not Catholic, but I live in Chicago - and trust me - there are many Catholics who are Democrats!

[Willow Oran]

There must be Catholics who are Democrats too, no?

Over here, the "Catholic vote", if there is one (and I am not sure there is) would tend to be left-leaning rather than right.

Yes, Catholics have historically and still do tend to vote Democrat, and that trend is a bit stronger among Catholic women. But in less urban areas we're starting to see more conservative, more white-collar Catholics leaning Republican.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yeah, Catholics have traditionally been very, very Democrat. Time was, you would get priests saying it was a mortal sin to vote Republican. Today, the Democrat party is itself a very different entity than it once was, and the Catholic Church in the US tends to be more allied with conservative figures, although this is of course a generalization. Roughly speaking, the ideology of the US bishops tends to be "socially conservative, liberal on fiscal and immigration issues," but the social conservatism is much more pronounced in the US Church than in much of the Catholic Church. And, yes, there are still plenty of Catholic Democrats. About a month ago, I finally got sick enough of both parties that I registered independent, but before that, I was a Democrat, and I still believe that there is deeper resonance between Democrat and Catholic thought than there is between Republican and Catholic thought.

[Insidious Rex]

Thanks for the clarification. I was basically aware that there were more than one type of catholic (and more than one type of catholic approach to politics) but I have been so floored by watching Santorum supporters on TV saying "well WE CATHOLICS agree with Santorum on everything because he stands for X and Y and Z" right after he talks about how all nurses are Hitler or some such nonsense. Guess I have yet to hear someone say "hey Im Catholic and this guy is nuts!"

As for it making more sense for Catholics to be Democrats, frankly it seems quite clear to me that traditional Christian philosophies are much more liberal (and radical) than they are conservative and Ive never really understood how true Christians can say without any hint of irony that the Republican party is the party for Christians.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

traditional Christian philosophies are much more liberal (and radical) than they are conservative and Ive never really understood how true Christians can say without any hint of irony that the Republican party is the party for Christians.

Well, maybe they are not true Christians...

* runs away *

[Valandil]

Well actually... it's tough. I don't know if this is so in European politics, but in America, so many are Christian - of one stripe or another - or at least we could say that the Christian heritage is so prevalent, that...

My theory is that the two major political parties in the US divide aspects of Christianity among themselves.

A few decades ago, many more Christians would have identified with the Democratic Party, I think. That began to change with Roe v Wade, the ensuing support of abortion rights by the Democratic Party, and the appearance on the scene of Ronald Reagan - a Republican who was so strongly pro-life.

I think it was that issue alone which pulled many Christians over to the Republican Party.

[The Gaffer]

I think you are dead right Valandil, and I appreciate you addressing the issue when I was clearly teasing. As I recall, it was Reagan that really tapped into the "moral majority", to the Republicans' lasting electoral benefit.

If this is predicated on some key issues, such as opposition to abortion and gay rights, what do you think the implications are for the future? Two terms of Reagan, plus three of various Bushes have brought several wars but not a ban on abortion. And now we've got states legalising gay marraige, in some form or another. It looks like the majority is turning away from the conservative moral agenda. Can the Republicans continue to face both ways at once?

I can't speak for "Europe", but in the UK religion is far less political. Issues such as abortion, euthanasia and the death penalty are usually categorised as issues of conscience, and therefore not party-political. Politicians who start banging on about them are usually mistrusted. In Scotland, there are close links between the Catholic Church and the Labour Party.

On a personal level, having been brought up in a strongly Protestant household it's my view that Christian moral views far more closely align with the Left (forgive thy tresspassers) than the Right (an eye for an eye).

It is relatively eash for the rich to talk about banning abortion. If Little Princess gets up the duff you can be sure Daddy will buy in the best illegal docs, or fly her first class to an offshore facility. So it's easy for them to promote abortion as a rallying flag because it doesn't have any consequences for them. Much harder to address the inequality, poverty and suffering throughout the world, which might require them to give up one of their yachts.

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

\ Roughly speaking, the ideology of the US bishops tends to be "socially conservative, liberal on fiscal and immigration issues," but the social conservatism is much more pronounced in the US Church than in much of the Catholic Church. And, yes, there are still plenty of Catholic Democrats. About a month ago, I finally got sick enough of both parties that I registered independent, but before that, I was a Democrat, and I still believe that there is deeper resonance between Democrat and Catholic thought than there is between Republican and Catholic thought.

Yeah, aside from the sexual issues ("other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play ?") I'm probably closer to the USCCB than Rick Santorum is, and the bishops are more conservative than most other Catholic organisations- for instance, they supported Obama's new mercury pollution regulations, which Santorum opposed.

[The Gaffer]

Not sure I get it. Is it because he is quoting Christ on a Hanukkah message?

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Not sure I get it. Is it because he is quoting Christ on a Hanukkah message?

Not only quoting Jesus, but this message in particular:

“I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Unlike the Jews, who, by not following him, are presumably still stumbling around in darkness.

[The Gaffer]

OK, so he's not the brightest then. Shame he's dropped out of the race in that case.

[GrayMouser]

Yea, it was fun while it lasted.

[inked]

Don't worry, guys, there are plenty of bloopers left. Obama's still running. Not only can he not make sure his microphone is off while conversing with the Russian on stage, he cannot control his media consultants!

1) Hillary Rosen attacks on mothers based on spurious assumptions http://freebeacon.com/dem-strategist...y-in-her-life/

2) http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...er_636942.html Obama's travel plan and the poor recovery

3) http://www.theblaze.com/contribution...ll-too-common/

and, no doubt, many more to come....

The fun's just begun!

[Insidious Rex]

Its pretty weak to try to peg Obama with the Hillary Rosen gaff regarding Romney's wife (which was purposefully taken completely out of context by the republican spin doctors so they could actually try to convince americans that they are the party that supports women despite recently trying to redefine rape, limit birth control and cut food aid to low income mothers but never mind that for now...) Shes a lobbyist not a member of the administration. And Obama chastised the statement in the very best way he could have: that talking about the spouses of those running for political office is never a good idea. So you are going to have to dig a little deeper to find cringe inducing gaffs on Obamas side that weve been seeing with great regularity over the past year or so by the various republican candidates. Why we could do a whole page on the human gaff machine that was Rick Perry in Just a few months of running, let alone Santorum, Gingrich, Romney, etc. There were periods during the last year or so where they just seemed to exist to trade off making mindbogglingly laughable comments.

[inked]

Well, not that we should limit it to the USA politicos:

Here's a Euro look at religion and individualism as it actually plays out:
http://www.koreaherald.com/opinion/D...20120412001037

"The European Union, the United States, and the world’s other democracies have the capacity to raise the issue of religious persecution; what they lack is the will. The EU should follow the example of the U.S. State Department, which publishes a comprehensive annual report on religious freedom around the world.

Another possibility is to raise the issue through bilateral agreements with countries where Christians are persecuted. That way, it would become clear that these states cannot operate with impunity when it comes to their religious minorities, whether they profess Christianity or any other faith.

By Fiorello Provera

Fiorello Provera is vice chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the European Parliament. ― Ed."