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04-18-2006, 07:44 PM | #61 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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I believe this person is a very valid source of historical truth & accuracy. What is not to believe? Look at the exhaustive piles of research that this person has, from literally years of careful searching and compilation? The truth is out there, people, if we are willing to open up our minds to it. On "Hitler's Pope" - Cornwell, a best-selling author and Vatican observer, said he was given access to secret church files because he had initially planned to defend the pope against charges he was silent about death camps. But after studying Pope Pius XII's own files and depositions taken under oath 30 years ago to support his eventual canonization, Cornwall said he was in a "state of moral shock." Cornwall says that when the pope, Eugenio Pacelli, came to power in 1939, he knew about Hitler's plans for a "Final Solution" and was begged repeatedly by bishops in Germany, even by an emissary from President Franklin D. Roosevelt, to use his authority to condemn Nazi atrocities. But he said nothing, and never acted to stop Catholic clergymen who collaborated in racial certification to identify Jews before they were sent to death camps.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 04-18-2006 at 07:53 PM. |
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04-18-2006, 07:59 PM | #62 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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So, you're just working on the assumption that the Vatican is a dressed-up Mafia, sending a couple of the boys to try to 'splain a few things to him? Quote:
And what of the book written by a Jewish Rabbi, saying that it's all a load? Do you think the Rabbi is just licking the Pope's boots, or what?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-18-2006, 08:00 PM | #63 | |
Elf Lord
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January 1942: USSR sends a letter signed by its Foreign Minister Molotov, about terrible deeds done by Germans in the occupied lands of the Soviet Union. July 1942: "Reigner telegram", a telegram from a German industrialist sends it to London and later it reaches the US. It says that the German plan is to take the Jews from all lands under Germany and exterminate them. December 1942: An official public declaration of the Allies, about the Nazi crimes - starvation, mass-executions, etc... I doubt most historians disagree with me. Yad Vashem states that "most of the population in Germany and occupied Europe was aware of the treatment to Jews" yet has done nothing. The Allies knew exactly where Auschwitz is in 1944 when two prisioners of the camp escaped. They also took photos of Aschwitz and even saw the Jews taken into the Gas Chambers. (I can scan the photo if you wish, from the book) About the Vatican - as far as I know it hasn't condemned the actions of Germany during the war. Condemning could probably save lives as most Polish for instance are Catholic, and many helped the Nazis to catch escaping or hiding Jews. |
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04-18-2006, 08:04 PM | #64 | |
Elf Lord
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"Some of the comments that have been uttered about Islam do not reflect the sentiments of my government or the sentiments of most Americans. Islam, as practiced by the vast majority of people, is a peaceful religion, a religion that respects others." "Islam is a vibrant faith. Millions of our fellow citizens are Muslim. We respect the faith. We honor its traditions. Our enemy does not. Our enemy doesn't follow the great traditions of Islam. They've hijacked a great religion." "I have assured His Majesty that our war is against evil, not against Islam. There are thousands of Muslims who proudly call themselves Americans, and they know what I know -- that the Muslim faith is based upon peace and love and compassion. The exact opposite of the teachings of the al Qaeda organization, which is based upon evil and hate and destruction." "Americans understand we fight not a religion; ours is not a campaign against the Muslim faith. Ours is a campaign against evil." "The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them." I personally disagree with President Bush about this, though I agree with him that Islam has brought much good in the world, and is a religion held by millions of people who live very good lives. I haven't kept up much on what the Christian Right says, so I can't comment about them. As for myself though, I say love Muslims and befriend them. The idea that we should just randomly "kill Muslims," is pure evil.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-18-2006, 08:13 PM | #65 | ||
of the House of Fëanor
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
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04-18-2006, 08:14 PM | #66 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Lief; it becomes easier once you realize that facts and truth are just not accepted by some.
At least no one here has said: Kill 'em all and let God & Allah sort them out YET.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 04-18-2006 at 08:16 PM. |
04-18-2006, 08:16 PM | #67 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-18-2006, 08:21 PM | #68 | ||||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-18-2006, 08:22 PM | #69 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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What? Yes you did!! You very explicitly and at great length the other day explained how what needs to be done is to have the entire Nation of Islam "brought to Christianity," made to convert to Christianity and abandon their Islam. One of your many "my religion is better than theirs" posts. Yes, it is sad how some people in general in this world keep their minds suffocated & narrow so as not to allow any room for truth or wisdom. Sad, sad, sad. Yes, perhaps for certain people "it becomes easier once you realize that facts and truth are just not accepted by some." I am not one of those people for whom "it becomes easier." That is just me. I feel that consistently and doggedly denying truth and reason in preference for religious ideology and politicism is part of the bane of the world's human race. Denying truth, peace and reason is horrendously and massively destructive. Religions like to deny truth, peace, and reason. So do political parties longing for power & wealth.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 04-18-2006 at 08:26 PM. |
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04-18-2006, 08:25 PM | #70 |
Elf Lord
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I have advocated speaking about our faith to those Muslims that are interested in exchanging ideas. I have NEVER advocated forced conversion. Brownjenkins and Insidious Rex misinterpreted me in this way, and I pointed out to them what I really meant.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
04-18-2006, 08:28 PM | #71 |
of the House of Fëanor
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And Radagast, and myself, and a few others also "misunderstood" you? Lief, you at great length and very clearly and explicitly outlined how what needs to be done is to bring all Muslims to Christ, and have them deny their own religion and convert. I'm not going to sit here and contiunue to argue with yuou about this; you were very clear about what you said. There was no room for misinterpretation.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
04-18-2006, 08:32 PM | #72 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
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Please Let Us Avoid Creation Of More Tension Than Is Necessary
Everyone Just Take A Few Deep Breaths Before Posting
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
04-18-2006, 08:37 PM | #73 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Here's another angle -
If a person says they're a thespIAN, it would be natural to assume that they are either acting or attempting to be acting. If a person says they're a ChristIAN, it would be natural to assume that they are either practicing Christian tenets, as outlined in the New Testament, or attemping to practice them. Since some here believe that Hitler was a Christian, and for a very long time, too, it should be easy for them to bring up scads of facts about how Hitler practiced the basic tenets of the Christian faith, such as loving his enemies, giving to the poor, being sexually faithful in marriage, considering others as better than himself, purposefully doing good to others, being truthful, etc. I look forward to seeing what people come up with! And I"ll repeat again, since Spock mentioned it on the other thread: The only instance I've seen of Hitler supporting his atrocities with a verse in the New Testament is when he mentions the verse about Jesus chasing the Jewish moneychangers and sellers of sacrificial animals out of the temple. Hitler apparently takes that verse and bases his policy of killing Jews on it. However, Hitler completely ignores the MANY instances of Jesus loving other Jews (and even doing the OPPOSITE of killing to one Jew - Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead!) so I hardly think his claim is valid. SO - what verses in the New Testament could Hitler point to to support his atrocities? If you guys can't find one, then he wasn't acting as a Christian when he did those terrible things.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-18-2006 at 08:40 PM. |
04-18-2006, 08:39 PM | #74 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-18-2006, 08:40 PM | #75 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
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Well said "R". Just remember, facts and truth aren't well accepted by some. It can get you down at times.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
04-18-2006, 08:43 PM | #76 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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yeah ...
That's why I also like to stress analysis of CONCLUSIONS drawn from facts, and that even here we have supposed "facts" contradicting each other. You can have a good fact, but if the conclusion drawn from it is in error, then the fact doesn't do any good. And you can have a fact that is true, but because other facts aren't known or presented, a truthful picture is NOT presented. I hope Gwai puts some of his facts here - some of those comments by Hitler that were very much AGAINST Christianity. Those are also facts.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-18-2006, 08:50 PM | #77 | |||
Elf Lord
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Don't you think he could do something to help the millions of jews that were being exterminated in Catholic countries? Lotesse - I understood it's not forced conversion, as he said it quite a few times in the "muslim" thread. But I find the idea evil nevertheless. |
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04-18-2006, 08:58 PM | #78 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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I'll say it again: Yes, it is sad how some people in general in this world keep their minds suffocated & narrow so as not to allow any room for truth or wisdom. Sad, sad, sad. Yes, perhaps for certain people "it becomes easier once you realize that facts and truth are just not accepted by some." I am not one of those people for whom "it becomes easier." That is just me. I feel that consistently and doggedly denying truth and reason in preference for religious ideology and politicism is part of the bane of the world's human race. Denying truth, peace and reason is horrendously and massively destructive. Religions like to deny truth, peace, and reason. So do political parties longing for power & wealth. I have gone to great lengths over many days here to explain my position that Hitler used Christianity and christian tenets in his rise to power and his reign. If you would like the answers to your questions, Rian, kindly read all the posts I've entered to that end. He claimed to be a christian; it got him where he wanted to go. I repeat myself ad nauseum on this, and my points keep getting dodged & sidestepped by you & by Lief, too. You guys also persistently keep ignoring the parallel I drew between Hitler with his Christianity and bin Laden with his Islam. You are repeatedly ignoring the point that I make, Rian, when I use Hitler & Christianity to show how religion is used by people in the world to justify the evil things they do. Whether or not Hitler quoted bible phrases is entirely and hugely beside this point.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
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04-18-2006, 09:05 PM | #79 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." -- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf "Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it." -- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter." -- Adolf Hitler, My New Order "The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfil God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will." -- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf "We are determined, as leaders of the nation, to fulfill as a national government the task which has been given to us, swearing fidelity only to God, our conscience, and our Volk.... This the national government will regard its first and foremost duty to restore the unity of spirit and purpose of our Volk. It will preserve and defend the foundations upon which the power of our nation rests. It will take Christianity, as the basis of our collective morality, and the family as the nucleus of our Volk and state, under its firm protection....May God Almighty take our work into his grace, give true form to our will, bless our insight, and endow us with the trust of our Volk." -Adolf Hitler, on 1 Feb. 1933 "Except the Lord built the house they labour in vain.... The truth of that text was proved if one looks at the house of which the foundations were laid in 1918 and which since then has been in building.... The world will not help, the people must help itself. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life.... The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty-- of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have become once more true Germans." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in March 1933 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ and some nice quotes, to offset all these exhausting evil quotes: " There is nothing to fear except the persistent refusal to find out the truth, the persistent refusal to analyze the causes of happenings." ~ Dorothy Thompson "When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow." ~ Anais Nin
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 04-18-2006 at 09:19 PM. |
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04-18-2006, 09:22 PM | #80 | ||||
Elf Lord
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This doesn't change the facts about what the modern accepted historical viewpoint is. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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