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#61 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 12-22-2004 at 11:32 PM. |
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#62 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Quote:
the alternative, treating palestinians or israelis, muslims or jews, as if they are somehow different kinds of human beings that must either be removed or forced to renounce everything that makes them who they are does nothing but feed the flames i'm pretty sure you will disagree vehemently with my longterm solution... my question to you JD, what is yours?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#63 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Thought provoking and correct, I must say:
Make No Mistake By DAVID BROOKS Published: December 21, 2004 Columnist Page: David Brooks TIMES NEWS TRACKER Middle East / United States International Relations It was a series of unfortunate events. How did we get to this sudden moment of cautious optimism in the Middle East? How did we get to this moment when Egypt is signing free trade agreements with Israel, when Hosni Mubarak is touring Arab nations and urging them to open relations with the Jewish state? How did we get to this moment of democratic opportunity in the Palestinian territories, with three major elections taking place in the next several months, and with the leading candidate in the presidential election declaring that violence is counterproductive? How did we get to this moment of odd unity in Israel, with Labor joining Likud to push a withdrawal from Gaza and some northern territories? How did we get to this moment when Ariel Sharon has record approval ratings, when it is common to run across Israelis who once reviled Sharon as a bully but who now find themselves supporting him as an agent of peace? It was a series of unfortunate events. It was unfortunate that Ariel Sharon, whom tout le monde demonized as a warmonger, was elected prime minister of Israel. After all, as Henry Siegman of the Council on Foreign Relations reasoned in The New York Review of Books, "The war Sharon is waging is not aimed at the defeat of Palestinian terrorism but at the defeat of the Palestinian people and their aspirations for national self-determination." It was unfortunate that George W. Bush was elected and then re-elected as president of the United States. After all, here is a man who staffed his administration with what Juan Cole of the University of Michigan called "pro-Likud intellectuals" who went off "fighting elective wars on behalf of Tel Aviv." Under Bush, the diplomats agreed, the U.S. had inflamed the Arab world and had forfeited its role as an honest broker. It was unfortunate that Bush gave that speech on June 24, 2002, dismissing Yasir Arafat as a man who would never make peace. After all, the Europeans protested, while Arafat might be flawed, he was the embodiment of the Palestinian cause. It was a mistake to build the security fence, which the International Court of Justice called a violation of international law. Never mind that the fence cut terror attacks by 90 percent. It was the moral equivalent of apartheid, the U.N. orators declared. It was a mistake to assassinate the leaders of Hamas, which took credit for the murders of hundreds of Israelis. France, among many other nations, condemned these attacks and foretold catastrophic consequences. It was unfortunate that President Bush never sent a special envoy to open talks, discuss modalities and fine-tune the road map. As Milton Viorst wrote in The Washington Quarterly, this left "slim prospects" for any progress toward peace. It was unfortunate that Bush sided openly with Sharon during their April meetings in Washington, causing the European Union to condemn U.S. policy. It was unfortunate that Bush kept pushing his democracy agenda. After all, as some Israelis said, it is naïve to export democracy to Arab soil. Yes, these were a series of unfortunate events. And yet here we are in this hopeful moment. It almost makes you think that all those bemoaners and condemners don't know what they are talking about. Nothing they have said over the past three years accounts for what is happening now. It almost makes you think that Bush understands the situation better than the lot of them. His judgments now look correct. Bush deduced that Sharon could grasp the demographic reality and lead Israel toward a two-state solution; that Arafat would never make peace, but was a retardant to peace; that Israel has a right to fight terrorism; and that Sharon would never feel safe enough to take risks unless the U.S. supported him when he fought back. Bush concluded that peace would never come as long as Palestine was an undemocratic tyranny, and that the Palestinians needed to see their intifada would never bring triumph. We are a long way from peace. But as Robert Satloff observes in The Weekly Standard, Israel's coming disengagements "will constitute a huge leap - both in psychology and in strategy - rivaling the original Oslo accords in historic importance." And the U.S. is already raising millions to help build a decent Palestinian polity. We owe this cautiously hopeful moment to a series of unfortunate events - and to a president who disregarded the received wisdom. *************************** cautiously optomistically yours,
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 12-23-2004 at 11:53 AM. |
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#64 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Quote:
![]() if i'm wrong and everything's peachy a few months from now, i will respectfully issue my congratulations to the current administrations ![]()
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#65 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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[quote] the alternative, treating palestinians or israelis, muslims or jews, as if they are somehow different kinds of human beings that must either be removed or forced to renounce everything that makes them who they are does nothing but feed the flames [/quote[ Over the top again ![]() Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#66 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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solution: put the same amount of money into palestine that we put into israel and stop supporting arab governments which are aristocracies... give them something to live for and take away the issues they hold against us
what's yours? ![]()
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#67 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 12-23-2004 at 04:12 PM. |
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#68 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#69 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 12-23-2004 at 05:26 PM. |
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#70 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#71 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#72 | |||||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 12-23-2004 at 11:06 PM. |
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#73 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
Posts: 61,986
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Good posts JD. I'm agreeing with like 95% of the things you are saying :P.
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
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#74 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: on the boats
Posts: 264
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Two small comments - first of all, is it true that diseases were deliberately spread amongst the indigenous peoples in what is now the USA? And also - the question of 'purchasing' land ... how much relevance did this actually have? I know very little about native cultures, but I'd suggest that if it was the case that the concepts of ownership of land, monetary exchange, contracts, the relevant legal system, etc were alien to these people then it's quite likely that this purchasing may have been inequitable and possibly not even particularly meaningful to one participating side.
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#75 | |
The Dude
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: at the altar of my ego
Posts: 1,685
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Quote:
![]() ![]() So was disease intentionally spread to kill native peoples ![]()
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Ill heal your wounds, ill set you free, |
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#76 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Quote:
look at these numbers for infant mortality (from the CIA World Factbook): israel total: 7.21 deaths/1,000 live births west bank total: 20.16 deaths/1,000 live births gaza strip total: 23.54 deaths/1,000 live births Quote:
a realistic "first step" for us would be to at least stop selling weapons to these dictatorships the difference between you and i is that i look at the totality of history, you only look at the parts that agree with your pov... but that's what i'm here for ![]() ![]() i understand your passion... but the last fifty years has not gotten us anywhere... it's time for a new approach... we have very little to lose
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#77 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Hemel,
Alas, the practice of biological warfare by the British was carried out by the deliberate introduction of blankets contaminated by smallpox victims to be distributed among Indians. The conquest of the Central and Southern American Indians was greatly aided by the introduction of smallpox and measles in a non-immune population, but was largely accidental rather than planned. The New World also gave as good as it got. Syphilis dates from the return of the Columbus expeditions! If you are interested there are several books on the subject that are worthwhile.
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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#78 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Some historical perspective on Palestine from a biblical perspective - highlighting the interpretations at play. Read for various understandings!
Columns : Palestine In Prophecy: A Short Review by Margaret Howell Posted by dvirtue on 2004/12/30 14:21:00 (50 reads) Palestine In Prophecy: A Short Review by Margaret Howell Recently, a local parish publication ran a small item announcing that the Chairman of the "Temple Mount Faithful" had written to the Pope (22 January 2004) declaring that "today, Israel is the most exciting fulfillment of God's end-time prophecies and promises. The climax of this prophetic time will be the rebuilding of the Temple exactly as the prophets of Israel prophesied." That the modern Israeli state fulfills Biblical promises, that this land was given perpetually to the Jews and that their "return' there actually heralds the end of the world, has been reiterated very often to demand Christian sympathy and even support for the Zionist enterprise, which is to build and maintain a Jewish state in Palestine. The desperate struggle continuing in the Holy Land augurs very ill for the immediate future, however, and the Church is being urged to endorse the claims of one of the parties to the conflict on the grounds that it fulfills God's will. The Biblical promises should be set into context. The promise most frequently cited, and probably the most familiar, comes from God to Abraham (Genesis 12:6-7) "And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land. And the Lord appeared unto Abram and said. Unto thy seed will I give this land and there builded he an altar unto the Lord Who appeared to him." Later the promise is made even more explicit (15"18) . "Unto thy seed will I give this land from the river of Egypt (not the Nile but the Wadi- el-Arish, about midway between el'Arish and Gaza) unto the great river, the river Euphrates." Before the birth of Isaac, God makes a covenant with Abraham through circumcision (Genesis 17:8) "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger." Ishmael was circumcised. In promising the aged Sarah a son. God says, I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make or him a great nation." (Genesis 17:19-20) Abraham's seed included Isaac and Ishmael. "(.Sarah) said to Abraham, cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son Isaac. And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight on account of his son. And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad and because of thy bondwoman; In all that Sarah saith unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall seed be called unto thee. And also of the son of the bond' woman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed." Note that this passage, seldom quoted, establishes Ishmael also as the seed of Abraham. The "everlasting" covenant with Sarah's son Isaac was not unconditional, however. According to the book of Deuteronomy, Moses issued long, baleful warnings about the consequences of faithlessness. "The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far; from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth . . . And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people from the one end of the earth unto the other," (Deuteronomy 28:49,64) The subsequent occupation and deportation of the population of Samaria by the Assyrians (722 B.C.) and the destruction of the southern kingdom of Judah (586 B.C.), when much of the population was taken to Babylon (where, by the way, their communities flourished until the twentieth century A.D.) was evidently the punishment for disobedience and inconstancy to the Covenant. So the prophets thought Zedekiah, last of the line of David, saw his three sons executed before his eyes were gouged out and he was taken in manacles to Babylon (II Kings 25) This horrible conclusion ended two promises: (1) that the descendants of Abraham would inherit the land forever, and (2) that David's heirs would always reign: "thy throne shall be established for ever" (II Samuel 7:16) Jeremiah, in his Lamentations, mourned over the destruction of the First Temple in Jerusalem, which had been established and designed by King David (circa 1000 B.C.) and which lasted from about 965-586 B.C. In 559 B.C., however, when Persia conquered Babylon, Cyrus the Great declared universal toleration, restored the gods of Babylon, and allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem if they wished and to rebuild the Temple. He fulfilled Isaiah's prophecy. "(The Lord) says of Cyrus, he is My shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure; even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shall be built, and to the temple. Thy foundation shall be laid." (Isaiah 44:28 When the Second Temple was finally completed in 526 B.C., all the Old Testaments had been dead for years. The reconstruction of Jerusalem and the rebuilding of the Temple, which had taken a long time, fulfilled their prophecies. Both prophets and kings disappear after this period. The Book of Nehemiah, cupbearer to Artaxerxes (464-424 B.C.) describes the restoration and repair work in the City of Jerusalem. Bearing letters from the King and escorted by a military guard, Nehemiah gained permission to rebuild the walls and seems to have become governor of Judea. Subsequently, Ezra arrived in Jerusalem, perhaps about 597 B.C., and he too had royal authority, this time to reform the faith of Yaweh. An expert in the law, he enforced a rigorous code, prohibiting marriage between Jews and Gentiles, and instituting a rule which resulted in the ever growing prescripts and prohibitions which had become such a conspicuous burden by the time of Christ. The Second Temple was the vast structure which Christ first saw when His parents took Him to Jerusalem and of which He predicted that "not one stone would be left upon another." (Luke 21:5-6). In 70 A.D., during the inevitable Jewish revolt, the Roman armies commanded by Titus (not to be confused with the Apostle) destroyed the City of Jerusalem, burned the Second Temple, and banished the Jews, fulfilling the prognostication of Jesus. continued.....
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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#79 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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continuation...
Judaism was a proselytizing religion for many centuries after this; converts from many nations joined the faith, so it cannot be maintained that the Jews are a single race; many are not Semitic. Since the return, the repair of the city, and the rebuilding of the Temple, "exactly as the prophets of Israel" foretold, took place between 558 and 597 B.C., or so, after those prophets were dead. The nationalists who want to reconstitute a modern Israel cannot claim that they are doing so as a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. Christians who know the Bible and their history will not be deceived by dangerous arguments. They are dangerous not just because any attempt to rebuild the Temple on the site of the Dome of the Rock might well, under existing conditions, result in World War III, but because they apply the genuine promises as we have received them to a narrow, nationalistic movement with its true genesis in the nineteenth century. The New Testament language about the Kingdom of Israel, King David, Jerusalem, the Covenant, and the Temple, fulfills the Old, referring not to a literal or historical restoration, but to the whole people of God and His promises to "make all things new" (Revelation 21:5). The promise to King David was renewed in Christ (Matthew 1:1, Luke 1:52-55) The Church seeks to build the new Jerusalem (Galatians 4:26, Hebrews 12:22, Revelation 21:2) not to occupy and dispossess the inhabitants of the earthly city. She is not called to atavistic nationalism, but to the new heavens and the new earth (Revelation 21:1; the Temple that Christ promised to rebuild in three days was the Temple of His body (John 2:21) and the Son of David, when Me came at last, promised a kingdom not of this world. This article first appeared in the Diocesan Circular Anglican Catholic Church of Canada. It is republished here with permission from the author. -- Margaret J. Howell is a teacher and author who lives in Richmond, British Columbia, near the little fishing village of Steveston. Her published books include Byron Tonight (1982), The House of Byron (1988) and two booklets of verse, The Seasons (1999) and The Silence that Sings (2004). She has also published numerous articles and reviews. She belongs to the Parish of SS Peter and Paul in Vancouver, a member Church of the Traditional Anglican Communion. ++++++++++++ LOOK, NURV! it's CANADIAN!!!!!!!! ![]()
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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#80 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
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First, David did not establish the Temple. Second, a part of the Second Temple still exists. (so, some stones are still left upon others)
Anyway, that's not my point - that's juist 2 of the mistakes I've found; and that by skipping some parts, and with very basic knowledge. ![]() Zionism, and the nation of Israel right now, were not built because of the religion... Most jews then weren't religious anyway, and after the holocaust most of them stopped believing in god completely. (from obvious reasons. Though, some believed God even more, as they were saved) I do not agree that many jews are not semitic...although I do know many aren't only Semitic. (well, if you have blue eyes...) (like my dad.) But it's really hard to become a Jew (you need to study and do lots of stuff, it takes over 5 years, IIRC), and besdies - who would want to be part of a religion that is hated all over the world? Our history teachers said the 'blue eyes, etc. came from... errr, rapes. I agree that the jews weren't exactly a nation before the 19th century. But the jews in the 19th century were different from all the other population, not only in religion - they looked different, lived in different places (Ghetto, for example. Which is just a closed naighbourhood in cities. It's Italian) The jews weren't really accepted, even after the equal rights given to them. They were just different - but jews from countries like France and Iraq were somehow similar. In a way. |
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