08-23-2004, 01:08 PM | #61 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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the way i see it, and we'll put real numbers aside, since i don't have them... with your way, let's say 50% are abstinant till married and 50% have sex unprotected with my way, let's say 40% are abstinant till married, 40% use contraception and 20% have unprotected sex which way is better to control STDs? Quote:
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08-23-2004, 01:13 PM | #62 | |||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-23-2004, 01:18 PM | #63 | ||
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Oh well, never mind. I find the comment very strange and somewhat amusing, but like you say, it's a whole 'nother issue . . . You know, we can't get anywhere without real figures. Even with them we may not be able to get very far, for I always want to know the other side of the story, and I don't see any evidence for abstinence-only coming forth.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-23-2004 at 01:19 PM. |
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08-23-2004, 01:31 PM | #64 | |
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my bottom line has always been to trust children with all the information available and to trust that the way i have brought them up will lead them to the right decisions i have three boys, 2, 6 and 10... and i've already put some pretty adult decisions in their hands... well, not the two-year-old ... they've responded pretty well, and i think are better people because of it... i know that is pretty much how my parents also did things... and even RĂ*an admits i'm ok time will tell, but i'm pretty confident my way can work, and work well
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08-23-2004, 01:37 PM | #65 |
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Mm-hmm. I'm still just undecided about what should be taught because of lack of sufficient information. Thanks for taking the time to respond to me .
~Lief
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
08-23-2004, 01:49 PM | #66 | |||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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08-23-2004, 01:54 PM | #67 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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08-23-2004, 01:56 PM | #68 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 08-23-2004 at 02:02 PM. |
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08-23-2004, 02:02 PM | #69 | |
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making murder legal would destroy society, irregardless of one's moral views on it by 'ideals', i mean that we should not base our legal system, or educational system, on things like 'universal abstinance', that do not, and will not ever exist in our society... by doing this we neglect a whole portion of our population this is not to say that ideals can not be promoted... they just must be looked at realistically... and by that i mean 'what do we do about those who do not follow them?' do we cast them aside, or try to compromise our position a bit to make life better for them? even if it may very well also compromise our own ideals
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08-23-2004, 02:14 PM | #70 | |
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other than to say that there are many roads to happiness
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08-23-2004, 02:50 PM | #71 | |
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EDIT - well, wait, I guess it's relevant, because decisions like AIDS fundings are based on ideals ... I think the fact that "universal abstinance" will never exist in our society does not somehow make it disappear as an ideal to be strived for, both for those whose worldview see it as an ideal, and for those whose worldview does not necessarily claim it as an ideal (because the plain fact is that abstinance is the best way to not get pregnant or get STDs). NOT teaching this truth is, IMO, a disservice. MANY teens wish to remain abstinant, or even if they want to have sex before marriage eventually, they have it SOONER than they would like to because abstinance is not promoted as a viable option. I think promoting abstinance as a viable CHOICE, and explaining the pros and cons (tho I'm not aware of any cons) is a great thing to do, and is helpful and supportive of the people that would like this option but are afraid, because of peer pressure, to do what they WANT to do. And as far as "compromising our position", I think you can NOT compromise your position and still look out for those that do not agree with your position. And of course murder falls into the same category as abstinance - having no murders is one of those things "that do not, and will not ever exist in our society... " 2 campers shot in California, another missing child ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 08-23-2004 at 03:01 PM. |
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08-23-2004, 03:23 PM | #72 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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as i said... as long as you our willing to cover all the bases i'm fine... ideals are not bad in and of themselves... only when you do not 'still look out for those that do not agree with your position'... laws should protect citizens first... ideals second
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08-23-2004, 03:34 PM | #73 | ||||||||
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To me its rather elementary. Kids will have sex. The very notion that you could convert a nation of 50 million teenagers into NOT having sex until adulthood is ludicrous. There will ALWAYS be millions of kids who will have sex at some point during their teenage lives. So if we simply ignore these kids we are doing them a great disservice and you are also shooting yourself in your figurative foot because by slamming the door on those kids who will do it anyway not only do you need to worry about AIDS but you REALLY need to worry about sexual abuse and teen pregnancy and a litany of other things that are guaranteed of happening when you don’t give people all the information. Limiting education only leads to ignorance. And then you will turn around and protests against the very same teenage girls who are going to get abortions because they got pregnant because they knew nothing about contraceptives. Seems rather two faced to me. Which is more important to you? Holding fast to your religious ideals of no sex for anyone till marriage or saving even one baby from being aborted BECAUSE the mother never was taught about contraception? You cant have it both ways. Quote:
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08-23-2004, 03:41 PM | #74 | ||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 08-23-2004 at 03:47 PM. |
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08-23-2004, 06:00 PM | #75 | |||||||
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Religious freedom can do good as well as bad things. It can destroy a country and it can build it. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-23-2004 at 06:31 PM. |
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08-23-2004, 06:31 PM | #76 | |||||
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This decision (where accepted) based upon the beliefs and desires of some will impact many more people. If you think that it's fine for this decision to be made, you should be willing to say that our religious convictions should be able to legally impact others' lives as well. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-23-2004, 07:07 PM | #77 | ||||
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Though I might be wrong, I believe that abstinence-only teachings are intended for every teen of high school age. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-23-2004, 07:29 PM | #78 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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08-24-2004, 05:43 AM | #79 | |
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The references are in that paper; when I've got a bit more time I'll see if I can dig them out. I agree with what you say about evidence, and appreciate your respectful approach to the discussion. Obviously, we have rather different interpretations. Firstly, we can agree that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence: just because there is no evidence on the effectiveness of something doesn't mean that it's not effective. What would be needed would be studies which showed that it didn't work. However, as others have pointed out, a couple of millenia of very strict, intensive, one-on-one abstinence coaching doesn't stop some priests from getting up to what they ought not to. Obviously, this is a minority, but perhaps we can rule out the possibility that abstinence education ALWAYS works. Secondly, it's a natural human tendency to seek out evidence that confirms what we believe. For this reason, all studies are potentially biased and must be subject to strict methodological filtering. It also means that, right across all areas of health care and education, we end up doing things which are ineffective or even harmful. Drug companies are particularly expert at getting us to adopt new technologies on the basis of flimsy evidence. Thirdly, there IS good evidence that "safe sex" education works. There is also pretty detailed evidence about HOW to do that education most effectively. (i.e. men don't like using condoms, women are pressurised into sex by men, so lots of deeply held beliefs and cultural norms have to be challenged for it to work) So, IMO, it would be immoral to abandon these proven methods and, indeed, immoral to undermine their effectiveness by promoting a message which works against the values that the condom education is trying to establish. EDIT: I agree that politics should be influenced by religious beliefs, if you have them, but this isn't about politics: it's about health care. People are dying by the million in sub-Saharan Africa, you know. Should we trash a proven preventive intervention in favour of one that is, at best, unproven just because it fits our religious beliefs? Last edited by The Gaffer : 08-24-2004 at 05:49 AM. |
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08-24-2004, 06:05 AM | #80 | |
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The issue is, what are the right belief sets to determine policy in health care? I'm sure there is a role for political, moral and/or religious beliefs. But what matters to me, first and foremost, is improving people's health. Clearly, we could harvest organs from terminally ill people, who are going to die anyway, and improve the health of lots of people with kidney failure or whatever. Equally clearly, that would be wrong. So, morality always has a role to play, even amongst heathens such as myself, as it does in all of our actions. However, this kind of debate is best when informed by an objective assessment of effectiveness. That too, is a moral imperative IMO. Politics too is involved here: what really sticks in my craw is that the end result of this debate is the rather convenient diversion of huge quantities of public money towards particular institutions providing unproven interventions. If I was a US taxpayer, that would get me really annoyed. |
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